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Students foot the bill for flagship state universities

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Re: Students foot the bill for flagship state universities

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always had a very simple way to do student debt forgiveness: 1) Have universities foot the bill, not the tax payer (shocking, I know). A literal refund. 2) Institute an audit every 5 years on their price to success rate on a per major basis. Have them refund north of 50% of the tuition if overpriced. Cool, now run your little game. This is literally a consumer protection issue and this industry has hid far too long…

What does “work” mean in this case? If a student goes to university and gets a degree in medieval French literature and then serves coffee for life as a job, the university did its job iff the student demonstrated a level of mastery of medieval French literature. The inadvertent economics education that came later was not the university’s doing and they take no credit nor blame for it.

> What does “work” mean in this case?

That the money was spent responsibly, for some definition of responsibly. Probably this doesn't mean the sort of abuses detailed in the article.

> If a student goes to university and gets a degree in medieval French literature and then serves coffee for life as a job, the university did its job iff the student demonstrated a level of mastery of medieval French literature.

I'm unconvinced that it would be good to disband humanities departments, or to ban non-STEM degree programs and/or degrees that don't involve training for a specific career path. Last I checked, even MIT has a humanities school (though it seems to be combined with art and social sciences.)

Our society seems to have enough react programmers and could probably use more medievalists, as well as other humanities grads - people who understand the human condition, have some sense and understanding of history, know how to exercise critical thinking skills, and can read and write well. These are skills that could serve someone well in a variety of jobs.

[Moreover, as more jobs (including supposedly highly skilled tech jobs) are automated out of existence, many of us are likely to end up in low-paying service jobs - at least until the robots take those as well.]

Re: Students foot the bill for flagship state universities

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, that’s a great point. So we’ll have to change the definition of “success” from whatever the definition these institutions have been using this whole time. Our government nearly tried to pass a $500 billion dollar refund for these universities idea of what it means to market itself as “an investment for your future”. Again, this is a consumer affairs issue. These universities are doing false advertising, period.

If you want to optimize for student ROI, then you end up with vocational schools, and a population of zombie workers educated in the absolute bare minimum necessary for them to do their jobs. There is substantial value in having a broadly educated populace, especially if you're going to let everyone have a say in governance.

System failed a long time ago. No point in having this discussion. Adjust the prices, and stop marketing it as a future.

At scale this has been a failure through and through.

Shoutout out the ultimate technical school of all, MIT.

How? Who knows. Guess they know the right people.

——-

From my own experience, I will add that educational requirements are almost financial. You need it to be free, educationally. The same way you need money to be free.

But back on point, don’t add swindlers collecting a check on that trek, certainly not on loan, certainly not beyond affordability.

——

You make this money and you are free to spend how you spend. You learn this, and you are free to learn how you learn.

Psychosocial.

Re: Students foot the bill for flagship state universities

#84
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think is wrong with that paragraph? It’s just saying that limited funding is disproportionally directed to the Grande Ecoles, leaving the other schools with much less funding. 6,700 euros is not a lot of money. It’s about $7,300. U.S. public universities and colleges spend on average over $28,000/year.

6,700 euros is not a lot of money. It’s about $7,300. U.S. public universities and colleges spend on average over $28,000/year. If I had $28k/year to spend on my education, I'd find a set of great tutors who would be willing to tutor me for an average of $100/hour. Even if I were to have a 1:1 tutoring session every single weekday (260 weekdays/year), that would only cost $26k/year, and I'd still have $2k/year to pay…

Berkeley charges about $11K in tuition (ignoring other fees) per year for California residents but non-residents (e.g. undergrads whose parents live outside CA) pay an additional $30K.

Unfortunately the total costs - including additional fees, living expenses, health insurance, etc.) add up, so in-state costs are around $46K total (or $33K estimated for students living with relatives.) Add $30K for non-residents.

Community colleges are usually only two years, but their tuition is something like $3000 for the academic year, and there is no hefty fee if your parents live out of state.

Re: Students foot the bill for flagship state universities

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

6,700 euros is not a lot of money. It’s about $7,300. U.S. public universities and colleges spend on average over $28,000/year. If I had $28k/year to spend on my education, I'd find a set of great tutors who would be willing to tutor me for an average of $100/hour. Even if I were to have a 1:1 tutoring session every single weekday (260 weekdays/year), that would only cost $26k/year, and I'd still have $2k/year to pay…

Berkeley charges about $11K in tuition (ignoring other fees) per year for California residents but non-residents (e.g. undergrads whose parents live outside CA) pay an additional $30K. Unfortunately the total costs - including additional fees, living expenses, health insurance, etc.) add up, so in-state costs are around $46K total (or $33K estimated for students living with relatives.) Add $30K for non-residents. Com…

Right, but we need to distinguish between three separate concepts:

A) the prices universities charge

B) the costs universities incur

C) the reasonable costs of providing a quality education, given current market prices of the important inputs

My comment was meant to illustrate the large gap between B and C.

You are talking about A, which changes in lockstep with B.

Re: Students foot the bill for flagship state universities

#86
post #51
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because somebody might innovate an education model where administrative salaries are 90% of the cost but students learn well, and earn well. An 8% cap would close off such avenues for progress. In general (going back to basic cybernetics/control theory), it’s better to regulate outcomes (what you actually want) rather than inputs, unless you’re sure you have the correct model of the system. So it’s much better t…

How is setting up a control system not in some sense regulating? I’m genuinely curious.

It most definitely is — I don’t think I’ve stated anything to the contrary?
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