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Ingo Molnar on what ails the Linux desktop

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Re: Ingo Molnar on what ails the Linux desktop

#191

Post by batista »

luser001 wrote: post #118
acabal wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been saying this same thing for years. Package managers are a nice concept in theory, but Linux on the desktop will never, ever succeed until upgrading (for example) Firefox doesn't result in an install of Unity. The entire concept of a milestone-based monolithic distro is so broken for desktop use that I can't believe a better alternative hasn't been developed yet. Even as a Linux nerd I'm constantly faced with…

I understand where you're coming from, but people have the exact same problem with Windows (and maybe Mac also; but I don't have much experience with Macs). Many people are staying on XP because they dislike Windows 7/Vista. I suspect the same is happening with Ubuntu. I personally LOVE LOVE LOVE that all my apps are updated by the same program. Instead of the Windows/Mac way of each app running it's own updater. How…

>I understand where you're coming from, but people have the exact same problem with Windows (and maybe Mac also; but I don't have much experience with Macs).

No, they do not have the same exact problem of package managing. Preferring XP over Vista/7 whatever, is not the "exact same problem".

>I personally LOVE LOVE LOVE that all my apps are updated by the same program. Instead of the Windows/Mac way of each app running it's own updater.

Well, Mac now has the Mac App Store, which handles updates for App Store installed programs.

But the problem is not about all programs being installed by the same program. It's about installations being transparent to the end user and not wrecking havoc. Also, not being inter-dependent.

Even Mac apps that update with their own updater, are autonomous units. At most, the app itself breaks.

Re: Ingo Molnar on what ails the Linux desktop

#192

Post by morsch »

moe wrote: post #177
morsch wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like I said, the three line process is trivially scriptable, so you could make a one-liner script that works like you describe, ie. install https://foobar.com/repositoryX pkg or install ppa:xorg-edgers/ppa nvidia-graphics-drivers . I suppose you could combine the two parameters into a single URL to make it more familiar for users. I don't see why it'd have to be integrated into apt-get itself, which does other things…

I don't see why it'd have to be integrated into apt-get itself That's exactly what I'm talking about. To give just one of many reasons: Because currently 'apt-get update' fails hard as soon as a PPA repo disappears. These corner cases must not exist. This is fundamental infrastructure, save the "easy workarounds" for higher levels. Apt has been "almost there" for about 10 years now. But "almost" is not good enough -…

Because currently 'apt-get update' fails hard as soon as a PPA repo disappears.

No, it doesn't:

  W: Failed to fetch http://repository.spotify.com/fake-
  url-to-fool-apt/dists/stable/non-free/binary
  i386/Packages  404  Not Found

  E: Some index files failed to download. They have been
  ignored, or old ones used instead.
All the other repositories are refreshed as usual. Again, apt-get and the rest of the underlying infrastructure is not the problem. I agree that users should not have to find a script, I'm just saying that's a reasonable way to solve the problem. The script should be part of the distribution, just like add-apt-repository, another script, already is.

(That said, I can agree that integrating this functionality into apt offers a chance of deeper integration in the future. And while it's not the Unix way, it may be that the Unix way has stood in the way of an ideal Unix desktop experience for some time now.)

Re: Ingo Molnar on what ails the Linux desktop

#194

Post by rbanffy »

rbanffy wrote: post #178
muuh-gnu wrote: post #17

The reason I stopped recommending Linux to "normal users" is _because_ of the concept of distributions. Coupling the updates of single apps with the updates of the whole desktop or framework and libs, is just plain wrong. Having to upgrade the whole distro (including all the other installed apps you dont want to upgrade) just to install a new version of one single app you _want_ to update is a nightmare. Total bullsh…

> He basically wanted to upgrade just one (obscure) app No. He wanted a new version of the app and upgraded to a new version of the OS (with a new set of default packages). And he got surprised by getting a new GUI, something which is rather odd because Unity was one of the most publicized features of Ubuntu. > the process triggered the automatic removal of Gnome2 and installation of Unity Not really. Gnome2 would st…

It's wonderful how downvotes can replace disagreement and discussion. You've got to love the conciseness.

Re: Ingo Molnar on what ails the Linux desktop

#195

Post by ElliotH »

freshhawk wrote: post #170
ElliotH wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ArchLinux is a very poor distribution to leave with someone who doesn't have the knowledge to fix these problems. When you do pacman -Syu you should be looking on the front page for update news, you should be looking at the list of packages to be upgraded. It's not a distribution that will hold your hand, because there are some of us around who don't want our hands held.

The idea that there are interfaces for expert users (or that there should be) is anathema on HN these days.

It's a pity, I can't imagine I'm the only person in the world who shudders at the idea that my computer should be made 'easy' for me (at the expense of flexibility and power). I'm a type of customer, just as much as the so called 'average user' is.

Re: Ingo Molnar on what ails the Linux desktop

#196

Post by eli_gottlieb »

barrkel wrote: post #28
icebraining wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that having to make and sudo install is essentially impossible for a common PC user, but how does the sandboxing have any impact in user adoption?

State is the big evil in software. Minimize shared state, and many, many problems go away. Centralized package management with a web of specific versioned dependencies is a huge hairball of state as it is. And when installed applications poke around inside your system, it only takes one or two oversights here and there to mess up this state. Sandboxing, where feasible, minimizes shared state; usually at the cost of o…

Yes, but then we all have to use Plan 9.

Re: Ingo Molnar on what ails the Linux desktop

#197

Post by eli_gottlieb »

VMG wrote: post #25

Maybe Android will conquer the desktop then? All it needs is mouse and keyboard support in the interface and higher-resolution apps, which will come for tablets anyway.

Honestly, if Android came on top of or with a real Linux base so that I could be assured my existing Linux applications and command-line environment will work... I would totally switch.

The new Ubuntu for Android project will take over the world.

Re: Ingo Molnar on what ails the Linux desktop

#198

Post by eli_gottlieb »

muuh-gnu wrote: post #17

The reason I stopped recommending Linux to "normal users" is _because_ of the concept of distributions. Coupling the updates of single apps with the updates of the whole desktop or framework and libs, is just plain wrong. Having to upgrade the whole distro (including all the other installed apps you dont want to upgrade) just to install a new version of one single app you _want_ to update is a nightmare. Total bullsh…

It doesn't work that way. "Linux", even GNU/Linux, is not really a single operating system. It's an anarchically-designed, anarchically-run OS-building kit revolving around a vision of what an ideal operating system would look like and with each part adjusting to what each other part is doing on the fly.

Evolution will never truly replicate the results possible with design.

Re: Ingo Molnar on what ails the Linux desktop

#199

Post by snambi »

rurounijones wrote: post #138
snambi wrote: post #102

The author mostly talk about maintaining packages. Some people say that it is the missing games and other desktop applications. However, we all know that Linux is best OS for development. It has best set of libraries, languages and utilities. Yet, why there not many cool Desktop applications? I believe the answer is, Linux doesn't have an IDE for Desktop development. Look at windows, they have .net Platform and IDE,…

QT Creator for Cross-platform. KDevelop for KDE focused stuff. Not sure what for GNome. What is wrong with the above?

I didn't know about QT Creator, it looks really good for application development. A lot of people are using Ubuntu for their desktop, including me and my friends. But, Ubuntu's landing page doesn't have a tab called "develop" for leading users to develop applications for ubuntu. So, My impression is linux is a great OS with libraries and frameworks necessary for system development. But, it didn't had the tools to build applications. But, apparently it does. Linux distributions should encourage users to write applications. The best way to do this would be having the information right on their landing page.

Re: Ingo Molnar on what ails the Linux desktop

#200

Post by runjake »

rbanffy wrote: post #179
runjake wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windows has which problems, exactly? His mentions are pretty Linux-specific and I couldn't find one that applied to Windows.

My first digital camera had drivers only for Windows 98. I had to dual boot until I got a CF card reader.

Could you elaborate on the jist of your point? I'm genuinely not getting it. Keep in mind than Windows 98 is a 15 year old, crappy legacy OS. And we were all running FVWM and AfterStep.
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