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Executive Function Theft

hedgehoglibrarian.com

121–130 of 227 posts

Re: Executive Function Theft

#121

Two things: The main assumption in this article is that "ego depletion" is real. It may not be, see Wikipedia [1]. Psychology is in a big replication crisis, and the ego depletion stuff is all tangled up in it. There's a real possibility that this "theft" only exists by virtue of you believing in it. I'm aware there's a lot of hedging to be done here (experiences of people with ADHD, etc.). I don't like calling this…

When I hear a correlation expressed as causation, I try to turn it around to check whether it makes more sense that way.

"If you believe that ego depletion is real, you experience it." -- wow, sounds spooky, fascinating if true

"If you experience ego depletion, you believe that it is real." -- yes thank you, Captain Obvious

To me it seems like different people have different capacity for making decisions (that's kinda what ADHD is about). If you can make 10 different decisions a day, but you are required to make 20, you experience "ego depletion". If you can make 30 different decisions a day, but you are required to make 20, you laugh at the idea of "ego depletion", and you can even help to debunk it experimentally by increasing the required decisions to 25 which you can still do easily.

An analogy would be if you talked to people who have broken legs and found out that they are unable to run. So you come with a hypothesis "all people are unable to run". Then someone else tests the hypothesis using both people who have broken legs and people who are okay, and then conclude "actually, the only people unable to run are those who believe that they are unable to run", which is technically true, but misses the part where the people believing that they cannot run are the ones with broken legs.

Re: Executive Function Theft

#122

I find it funny that the author suggests that husbands have more time for hobbies and friends; I don't know about hobbies but male friendship has been in decline for a long time now... The EFT framing is a good model but the gendered arguments need much more nuance than is offered in this piece. I also wonder how much the higher standards plays a part in this kind of thing. If person A believes tasks like vacuuming n…

If I really cared I would somehow be able to wave my magic wand and implement sick leave entitlements and other demands? No. Reality doesn't work like that. A card is far more in the realm of possible things I can do. Caring does not confer capability.

Time to fight for human rights in your country ig?

Re: Executive Function Theft

#124
post #93

I would love to see a follow-up article entitled "Why I can't 'just say "no"'". That's what I'd do (albeit in more diplomatic language) so I am extremely curious why others don't or can't. The author does touch on this briefly, mentioning that in The No Club > the authors found that when they turned something down, another woman — usually one with less power — was asked So perhaps partly it comes from a desire to hel…

I think the author found the reason pretty clearly; this is the issue I run into all the time when a shit-task is thrown at my team. There are simply too many people bringing tasks that need to be done, but not necessarily by our team. I am comfortable telling people "no, this is not our team's responsibility, we don't have the time right now with our current bandwidth", but many people on my team are not. Worse, when I say "no", it's not uncommon that the task will still be presented to someone on my team without my knowledge, and my team will _gladly_ accept because they're not comfortable saying "no" to these persons (power dynamic, a lot of "fights" have happened trying to resist such requests).

I do tell the team just to ignore those requests and report them to me, yet the people making the bad requests just get more aggressive with their requests, either exaggerating the importance, exaggerating the requestor's "right" to assign the task to my team, etc.

The end result is that we end up closing the means to talk to my team or I am brought in more often to deny the requests, which means I'm spending more time explaining why we aren't doing stupid and wasteful things like giving some sales teams' client free work for a year (can easily cost 6 or 7 figures USD) without getting proper approvals from all the teams required to provide that work. Examples _like_ this happen way too often and it can be weeks worth of emotional meetings explaining why the original requestor needs to deal with the mess they made themselves.

My team is a bunch of IT professionals, and they should be doing IT work, not spending weeks convincing other teams to clean up the messes they made or preventing months of commitments for projects that should never have been approved, and it does _NOT_ feel good or right at all to make them constantly do something that is objectively not their job, and the end result is I end up burning out badly intercepting all of these requests.

The article was very relatable for me and EFT is a term I am going to be using moving forward.

Re: Executive Function Theft

#125

The fallacy here is assuming planning something is draining or bad for you. It more has to do with how much you enjoy the thing. I think couples have arguments about the thing neither of them wants to do. But if one enjoys planning the holiday for example they will just do it and it wont feel like EFT. I definitely get bank EFT (pun not intended), I deal with this by having recurring todos with all the links and stuf…

I think you’re missing the assumption that planning is the “good” task, and the alternative is cleaning/chores, which generally no one wants to do.

> the other person is getting to relax or to plan a project?

Habits and subconscious thinking helps, but you do still have to do those tasks, and it does still take thought. You still have to write them down, set up todos, etc.

The idea is that cleaning/chores requires a lot of small things, that isn’t fun, but is mentally taxing. Planning meals, cooking, cleaning, tracking what needs to be cleaned next, timers, etc is the EF being “stolen”.

Re: Executive Function Theft

#126
post #43

> I will admit to never having been able to read Cal Newport’s Deep Work all the way through — I got too irritated — but I would point to his dismissive naming of the idea of “shallow work”, which he defines as logistical and often repetitive tasks, such as writing short emails. Newport recommends entirely stopping or poorly performing that work; I read this as encouraging readers to commit EFT against others around…

Dumping shallow work onto other people is not only legit but often necessary. It's just economics 101. Before computer was invented, "computers" were people who did the ultimate shallow work - computing - so the mathematicians could actually do math.

Inventing shallow work, however, is the root of evil.

Re: Executive Function Theft

#127
> ... the deliberate abdication of decision-making

However unpopular, I strongly disagree with this take. Looking at the world like this is not productive.

Assuming others are acting maliciously obfuscates what's actually going on (decades of misaligned incentives in the case of FSA) and it removes personal agency.

Re: Executive Function Theft

#128
post #88

Accounts Payable implements as much friction as they can to avoid paying money. They think this is their job. I see many companies treating their customers like criminals or slaves; many more than used to pull that stuff. It's only going to get worse.

It's because of commodity-ification of debt. Like a conversion-funnel, they turned it from a human function into an assembly line that eventually leads to your non-payment being sold to a debt collection agency. They assume you won't pay. So many times I've looked at a reminder email, put it aside because it pisses me off. Yes I have the money to pay, yes its like 2mins to do in my banking app, yes I will settle it,…

Bad debts sell for pennies on the dollar, no-one is incentivised to get you not to pay.

On the psychological side, I know what you mean but you do seem to be taking things a bit personally. Yes, businesses are big and impersonal and automated, because society is big and impersonal and we have access to a huge range of services, we can't change much based on how pissed off we are.

AI assistants to make life easier for us must only be a year or two away.

Re: Executive Function Theft

#129

This is real difficult for me to empathize with - I think I get what the issue is, and it’s just not an issue for me. How is it an issue for others??

I can appreciate that, but let me share my experience at a position I had as I've dealt with this a lot and the work became untenable. The team I lead is pretty good, not perfect of course, but we tend to get the desired results and even more for the most important clients/issues, and we do pretty well with clients on the soft-skills side, so clients typically like the team I work with.

While this seems like we'd be a fairly carefully protected resource, over time, just everything started being thrown at us, including stuff that had absolutely nothing to do with our team. It's a big international company with different managers on other teams coming and going, so it's never clear who in the company knows about our team yet.

- early on, it was just a few people making requests directly to me, and a small portion of my day was turning down these requests

- as time went on, the team grew, we succeeded more, and more and more irrelevant requests started coming. We turned them down, but the amount of requests and the irrelevance and importance of the requests were all increasing, the latter two often linked very closely together

- at some point, we started getting exceptional push-back when we turned down requests. the first few times were rough; manageable, but I had to dedicate a few meetings/days to getting rid of this request and the requestors were very upset when I turned them down

- eventually it got to the point where a good 40-50% of my week was dealing with irrelevant requests and increasingly aggressive resistance when I turned it down

- the requestors around this time began just trying to circumvent me; find the people on the team I was leading who were not as good at saying "no", and getting the tasks in that way. I had to eventually put a full stop on requests that didn't come via a specific channel; this in turn resulted in a lot of drama from other teams complaining we were being prima donnas, and arguing with higher management if we should have the _right_ to insist on requests coming via a specific channel (something basically every team does...), which eats up more of my time as I'm having to explain to execs that have absolutely no idea about this aspect of the company, but believe the requestors when they say "yes, this team must solve this", keeping in mind that the task has absolutely nothing to do with our team, they just want us to deal with it

- a corollary to the above point, keep in mind the requests are still coming in while this debate is happening since the debate is whether or not we can restrict the channels for making requests, so my teammates are still being harassed every day by these requestors

- finally we get "approved" for the right to a dedicated single channel for the requests, and the requestors just ignore it anyways; there is no reprimand for the persons not following the approved process, and the entire debate was a pointless exercise

- I'm spending 80% of my time now arguing with these requestors and telling why we're rejecting their requests. Most of these requestors are repeat visitors, so it's not like they don't know these reasons and rules, they just don't care, they don't want to deal with the shitty task they made

- eventually, the requestors realize they don't need to request it to me, they just need to request it to an exec who has _some_ oversight over our department, give those execs enough worry to convince them we need the best, and the requests are routed to my teams. so I end up accommodating and adding meetings with these execs on the regular in hopes that they at least ask me if this really needs my team or not (spoiler: most never ask, they just lay down their decree and expect it to be done). My week is now about 95% just telling people to knock this shit off, but the tasks keep coming

- my team is burnt out, we're absolutely fed up with all the work, and even worse, we're having troubles sorting when we really do need to be on a task as there are just so many, so actual projects we _should and could have helped with_ are now in trouble as they got deprioritized. these are indeed important projects that need us, and by the time we get to them, they're in such bad shape due to mismanagement and awful decisions that it's a ton of work to get the project off life-support, and that is typically as far as we can take it before we have to shift the focus to another dying project

There's a lot here, but remember, my team is filled with IT specialists and we're supposed to be helping on specific difficult projects that align with our specialties and nothing more. Yet now more than 90% of my job is just solving arguments or problems that other teams created, doing work that has 0 to do with our team's original focus, struggling to keep the projects that are our focus just barely treading water, and constantly having to explain to extremely aggressive and emotional people that their personal unwillingness to have tough conversations with clients or their unwillingness to fix their own mistake is their problem to solve, not ours.

I absolutely can empathize with the article as it's basically all I do at my work anymore, and it's really awful to wake up and wonder "who's bullshit am I going to have to deal with today?" when I should just be setting up a few environments and writing a bit of code while mentoring the team I'm a part of. The fact that everyone participating in this EFT has been told in no ambiguous terms many times why their requests are bad and not for our team, but I guess the company decided at some point we're just going to waste everyone's time arguing on such things instead of doing IT work at some point.

Guess I missed that meeting in favor of explaining to some exec why the project their team proposed is basically giving away thousands of work hours for free just because some sales team didn't have the courage to tell a small and awful client "nah we aren't doing that"

Re: Executive Function Theft

#130
So, CEOs are thieves of the letter "E" from employees, if they delegate so much that the employees cannot meaningfully participate in the higher strategic decisions together?

Task delegation can be cooperative or abusive, as the article points out. It might be called theft if there is something owed and taken away from, but for that, it has to be that participation in executive decision was a right of employee or contractor to begin with (for that, they have to investigate under what agreement they work, what type of organization and expectations were set). Some contractors are happy to deliver a part or component to specifications, get paid and not participate in strategic decision making, others want to be part of the mission, and decide higher level goals together. It depends on the type of social contracts we enter into!

Btw., the "Executive Function Theft" as defined in the article, is an important social issue in the area of abuse of power, but reading plainly, it can be confused with good illegal leadership takeover without abuse of power, and with positive social outcomes.

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