Live data from Hacker News

Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

science.org

71–80 of 109 posts

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#71
post #11
post #6

That's not a surprise. I mean, it's pretty difficult to have a thought without using language. When we watch a scene, we kinda describe it automatically using words, and that description is bound to be affected by the language used. I wonder what was the everyday experience of a human before language. It must have been pretty different from the world we experience as literate monkeys.

> it's pretty difficult to have a thought without using language You get to be today’s 10,000! (xkcd reference) Not everyone has an internal monologue ! 50% to 60% people experience their thoughts completely nonverbally. There isn’t a voice constantly narrating their lives. Some people don’t even process words as words but add pictures instead. Best part: the two groups don’t realize the other group even exists. We a…

This online survey from UWMadison came up the other day, which estimates where you sit on the bell curve in terms of internal verbalisation.

https://uwmadison.co1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_3NMm9yyFsNio...

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#72
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I _do_ hear it, accent, inflection, pauses, and all. Not through my ears of course but a very close simulation. I don’t relate to the inner monologue as pictures reference at all!

Ok then, let's rephrase to "an internal voice that you can feel, but it's not heard by your ears". It's not sensory. The phrase doesn't matter. What I want to highlight, is that I can never describe my internal thoughts exactly. There's always a chance for misunderstanding (me not being able to put in words my thought process, or you not being able to translate my description to a meaningful experience to you). If a…

I don’t want to reject your experience because no one knows what anyone else experienced within their mind. But I know my experience is very much a conversation replete with proper grammar, inflection, etc to the point I could recite it out loud right after verbatim, so subjectively it’s very similar to hearing through my ears. Others experiences sounded more abstract so I wanted to share mine. But I suppose we may never really know :)

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice. To liken it to computers, memory is a bit like storage, while recall is the act of retrieving what's stored. The concept of memory being JITed is intriguing. it's reminiscent of the dynamic nature of human cognition. I always like to think about how comprehension influences memory. Like. Can we truly remember something if we don't understand it? Or more precisely can the data be committed to memory losslessly.…

It's pretty well known that memory is lossy. Otherwise witnesses would correctly remember specific details of a crime: in reality, people remember incorrect details quite often. I wonder if some language patterns are an emergent effect of the way memory is created and reconstructed. There seems to be some mysterious isomorphism here, but no one has really gotten a handle on the specifics of either phenomenon.

i'd lean towards the idea that while our memories can be imprecise, language patterns might not be just a byproduct of how memory is formed or pieced together. perhaps the environment, upbringing, and even personal experiences interweave with the linguistic structures, molding our recall in certain ways. it's multifaceted, and maybe it's less about one causing the other and more about them influencing each other.

I'd even argue that while memory can be fallible, it doesn't necessarily mean that language patterns are solely an emergent effect of memory creation or reconstruction. there's potential that cultural, social, and experiential factors interplay with the linguistic aspect

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They say often that French are bad at quick math and Chinese are better due to the nature of their numeric system

French is one of those languages where primary school will have tests on how to write/pronounce straight numbers. Like 71, 82, 93. And some will fail, because it's bonkers. Quickness is definitely not prioritized.

On the other hand, if you practically have to do a little algebra in your head to figure out how to pronounce a number, I guess you’ll be good at algebra.

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#75
post #66

> Bilinguals and monolinguals remembered English competitor words that overlapped phonologically with a spoken English target better than control objects without name overlap. High Spanish proficiency also enhanced memory for Spanish competitors that overlapped across languages. We conclude that linguistic diversity partly accounts for differences in higher cognitive functions... This conclusion sounds like quite the…

Paper conclusions are always leaps. They are an embarrassment to science, and journals should ban them or move them to the editorial pages. Doing a bit of research shouldn't be a license to speed BS under cover of fact.

Science journalists should understand that one paper is just a piece of the puzzle.

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#76

Man this reminds me of this trip I took to the Maldives as a kid. While spending time with locals, I learned the word "feyli," a term unique to their Dhivehi language. "Feyli" describes the feeling of sand between your toes as waves recede on a beach, a sensation familiar to many but so specific that English doesn't have a singular word for it. Before being introduced to feyli I simply enjoyed beach walks as a sum of…

as my old fried Witty used to say, the limits of my language are the limits of my world.

That's the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, which has been pretty thoroughly discredited:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#77
post #31

Man this reminds me of this trip I took to the Maldives as a kid. While spending time with locals, I learned the word "feyli," a term unique to their Dhivehi language. "Feyli" describes the feeling of sand between your toes as waves recede on a beach, a sensation familiar to many but so specific that English doesn't have a singular word for it. Before being introduced to feyli I simply enjoyed beach walks as a sum of…

Your simply mentioning the sensation was enough to distinctly bring it to mind. Having grown up by a beach, I've experienced it a lot, from childhood through to as an adult at different beaches around the world. While a specific word for it may be useful, I don't see how it is necessary as an aid to recall of the sensation.

> I don't see how it is necessary as an aid to recall of the sensation.

Because the nature of language itself is that of compression. In fact, this is why there are often miscommunications, and significantly more on the internet than with people you know well.

Language works kinda like this: Alice has a thought in their head, they compress that thought into words, Bob hears the words and decompresses the words into thoughts.

The intent is so that we can communicate thoughts between one another. But our compression and decompression algorithms are different. Quite incredible when you think about it, since these are fuzzy algorithms so the decompression algorithm works for even different compression algorithms. You can work with someone speaking a broken form of your language or even a completely different language (mutually intelligible). In fact, you can train yourself to be better at decoding and you may notice someone that hangs out with "foreigners" a lot is easily able to understand someone speaking in a broken form of your language with a heavy accent while this is completely unintelligible to another person. This can even be done with novel source languages and accents. (try turning off the subtitles and you'll get better).

But the major miscommunication issue is the priors that our compression and decompression algorithms work with. The previous concept works because we broaden the possible priors, but if you assert strict ones you will miscommunication more and misunderstand more. This is why when people try to deceive you they will assert very narrow ways of understanding certain words. But in reality, words only mean what we mean them to mean, as the purpose of language is only to communicate thoughts in heads. But that's why good faith is so important. You shouldn't just try very hard to make sure your words are easy to interpret, but also try very hard to interpret the intent behind the words of another. Reading between the lines isn't only for hidden messages, but every conversation.

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as my old fried Witty used to say, the limits of my language are the limits of my world.

That's the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, which has been pretty thoroughly discredited: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity

I think you're thinking of the strong version of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. The strong version is that language dictates how one thinks while the weak form influences. The weak version is near universally accepted and it should be fairly easy to see why. Most people think in words, but note that not everyone does. That sentence alone should give evidence to the strong being false and the weak being true.

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#79
certainly true, also the increase in vocabulary effects how we explain and remember things. When we recall things, we try to describe them in words and how we describe it helps in re-remembering things. If we do not have enough vocab to describe certain event we cannot interpret to someone no matter how clearly it is stamped in our memory. And this consequently effects us how we remember things while we revised it in our words.

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#80
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as my old fried Witty used to say, the limits of my language are the limits of my world.

Do languages have limits? I mean, the poster explained the situation in English. How much does terseness matter I wonder?

> Do languages have limits?

Yes.

Language is itself compression of thoughts. Thoughts themselves are compression of something larger (observations, experiences, combinations of other thoughts, etc). It seems that there is more than one very famous mathematical proof that dictates that systems such as these cannot be complete, or even consistent.

Post reply on HN