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70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

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Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#161

Post by JumpCrisscross »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #86
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> yet the "war on terror" happened. US companies gained a lot from that even if the average taxpayer didn't The War on Terror, and invasion of Iraq, were massive American policy failures. (The article I quoted says as much.) Had Xi not become a dictator and Putin not invaded Crimea and then the rest of Ukraine, American hegemony would be on a downturn as a result of those fumbles.

>The War on Terror, and invasion of Iraq, were massive American policy failures. Not if you ask Halliburton

> Not if you ask Halliburton

The stockholders who have seen a third against since 2006?

You’re dragging a red herring. In the past, conquest was popular because it made the conqueror as a whole rich. Today, you’re limited to scratching out whatabouts with one-off and dated examples like Halliburton. The circle of net beneficiaries rivals that of botched aid operations.

Industry has made war, proper war, almost universally stupid for advanced societies.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#162

Post by nabakin »

cpursley wrote: post #150
thephyber wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the same Ukraine that is still actively at war for its existence after being invaded by a nuclear superpower. The capital is still being bombed, the democratically elected leadership is still under threat of assassination, so many of those infringements upon freedom are actually reasonable.

Suspension of civil rights is NEVER okay in democratic societies. If you suspend them, you’re no longer democratic - Period.

You don't seem to understand what an invasion does to a country. This is an existential fight. Any country fighting for swaths of its territory is forced into authoritarianism and hopefully bounces back once things stabilize, but don't blame them for trying to survive. Blame Russia for forcing this state of affairs.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#163

Post by smsm42 »

cpursley wrote: post #150
thephyber wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the same Ukraine that is still actively at war for its existence after being invaded by a nuclear superpower. The capital is still being bombed, the democratically elected leadership is still under threat of assassination, so many of those infringements upon freedom are actually reasonable.

Suspension of civil rights is NEVER okay in democratic societies. If you suspend them, you’re no longer democratic - Period.

I share your disappointment at virtually every Western country no longer being democratic. Indeed, suppression of basic freedom of movement, speech, association, rights to earn one's living and even going as far as freezing one's assets and confining people to their homes, without them being convicted of any crime, proves conclusively countries like US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Britain, etc. are no longer democracies. Ukraine would do well to follow example of democratic countries - but unfortunately, almost none left in existence.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#164

Post by orwin »

lostlogin wrote: post #62
orwin wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Shah couldn't have taken the power without US help. It's one of the US few success, Pinochet being the second. Obviously it's easier when you have internal support. Basically the Iranian conservatives were divided. The Shah was unlikeable (or untrustworthy I think, if I remember correctly), so the old feudal/clannish/agrarian society wouldn't really support him. The industrialists liked him better, and the islami…

> The Shah couldn't have taken the power without US help. It's one of the US few success, Pinochet being the second. Can you explain this? I wouldn’t call Iran’s situation or Pinochet good outcomes at all, but are you meaning that the US achieved what it intended too, so was therefore successful?

Yes, it was two very successfull CIA operations.

I mean, i often argue with a friend who think that the CIA best operations are those we don't know, but imho it's conspiracy thinking, and the CIA was caught, many, many times. Also there was no real proof for the Shah that the CIA was this involved (until like 5 years ago when the CIA just declassified and admitted it), which to me is quite impressive.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#165

Post by mensetmanusman »

cpursley wrote: post #150
thephyber wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the same Ukraine that is still actively at war for its existence after being invaded by a nuclear superpower. The capital is still being bombed, the democratically elected leadership is still under threat of assassination, so many of those infringements upon freedom are actually reasonable.

Suspension of civil rights is NEVER okay in democratic societies. If you suspend them, you’re no longer democratic - Period.

So Marshall law means the US isn’t a democracy (which is true, being a republic)…

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#166

Post by mensetmanusman »

thephyber wrote: post #132
BaculumMeumEst wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well i’m not going to change that with my guessing but i’d wager that it has more to do with the values of the populace, the willingness of the people to engage in and be ruled by democracy, and the regional stability at the time than anything the US did or didn’t do

I’d argue the US government/military involvement was crucial in both Japan and West Germany. The US military ran their governments for a few years, eliminated their domestic politics from being involved in war/defense decisions, restructured their governments, made excellent choices when it came to social, education, healthcare, transportation, and industrial policies. I would argue that local values played a part, b…

There has always been political disfunction. There were hundreds of annual domestic political bombings in the US in the 60/70s.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#167

Post by AlbertCory »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #116
AlbertCory wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After WW II, the UK didn't have the power to overthrow anyone . They were ruined by two world wars. You seem to have confused "intent" with "ability." That's why in 1956, the UK and France had to humiliatingly climb down from the Suez operation. Eisenhower just said, nope, nope and that was it.

Ah right, because 3 years later the UK couldn't mount an actual military operation in Egypt, without the assistance of the USA, there's no way that they and the US could have helped a coup take place in 1953.

I still haven't seen any details of how they supposedly did it. Was it by magic, or what?

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#168

Post by NoraCodes »

aapl88889 wrote: post #123
NoraCodes wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Nazi government was overthrown and its ideology outlawed. Not so with the United States.

Do you want democracy and capitalism to be outlawed? What ideology?

I didn't say that. The question was, what's the difference between the relationships between the Nazis and the contemporary nation of Germany, and the Americans who committed crimes of imperialism in the 20th century and the contemporary nation of America. That's the difference.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#169

Post by NoraCodes »

loeg wrote: post #96
NoraCodes wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Nazi government was overthrown and its ideology outlawed. Not so with the United States.

In the US, the Truman and Eisenhower administrations are long out of power. Most Americans alive at the time this happened are dead now. Certainly the ones who were in power at the time.

That is not the same thing as systematically eradicating the institutions of power that allowed the atrocity to happen.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#170

Post by thephyber »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #165
cpursley wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suspension of civil rights is NEVER okay in democratic societies. If you suspend them, you’re no longer democratic - Period.

So Marshall law means the US isn’t a democracy (which is true, being a republic)…

Democracy (as in will of the people) doesn’t really exist during wars on domestic soil. Martial Law declarations are at least the honest admission of that.

And the democracy / republic pedantry is tiresome. We are a Democratic Republic (and also a Constitutional Republic). They are not mutually exclusive.

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