Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don’t really see US foreign policy in that era as imperialistic. That’s giving it too much credit as it implies a degree of even Machiavellian intelligence. The British were imperialistic and they were actually kind of good at it. It was sheer idiocy, an exercise in spending massive amounts of money to build up our own enemies and negate our own supposed values, turning billions away from Western democracy and towa…
When has this stopped. https://theintercept.com/2023/08/09/imran-khan-pakistan-cyph...
70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression
151–160 of 210 posts
Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Sad to see what Iran has become - no in small part thanks to the US/UK's meddling and installing a crazed theocratic government. This is some tinfoil-hatted nonsense. I'll be charitable and assume you're unfamiliar with the history, as opposed to a conspiracy theorist who thinks the CIA is behind everything you think is wrong with the world. Rightly or wrongly, the US and UK went after Mossadegh precisely because t…
Was it not as follows? Mossadegh wanted the control over Iranian oil back, therefore the US and UK got rid of him which allowed Pahlavī to become dictator and he was supported by them to gain influence, oil, and defense against the Soviet Union. Especially with weapons. But the way he treated the people eventually made them unite behind Chomeini and that was the end for the Shah. This was of course not good, so the U…
And as much as some people on the Internet think this is a Very Bad Thing, oil is and was a critical part of the global economy. An unstable dictator being able to play games with the world's oil supply isn't just a Very Bad Thing for imaginary mustache-twirling capitalists in their monocles and top hats. It's a Very Bad Thing for anyone who has a job or who relies on global trade. Which is, well, everyone. Which is why a multinational coalition under UN authority, which included several other Arab countries, put Saddam back in his place.
Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression
#153Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I don’t really see US foreign policy in that era as imperialistic. US has been imperialistic from birth. Heck the revolutionary war was fought to secure our right to be imperialists and commit genocide against the natives. Our reason for existence is imperialism. Or maybe history is right and a bunch of racist slavers wanted to birth liberty and freedom into the world. > That’s giving it too much credit as it impli…
It’s easy to see what’s wrong with this if you apply it to others. Did the Soviets really believe in Marxism or did they just want to take over in place of the Tsars? Do the Iranian Mullahs believe in Islam or are they just making up excuses too? Did the Pharoahs believe in their mortuary cult or did they just make that stuff up to con people into stacking up big rocks? One thing I’ve learned in my time around here i…
Who cares? Your example has no relevance to my assertion. The difference is that the soviets and mullahs started out as marxists and muslims. The british empire didn't start off 'to civilize the world'? For hundreds of years, the brits were stealing land, transporting african slaves, invading countries before they started peddling the 'civilize the world' propaganda.
> The British mostly did believe that their great empire was destined to civilize the world
No they didn't. They made that up that nonsense in order to justify or rationalize their barbarity. Stealing is bad. Killing is bad. Even the brits understood that. It's only after a few hundred years of murder and theft that the brits invented the 'civilize the world' or 'white man's burden' nonsense.
> and the Americans believed they were creating a new Atlantis and that what they were doing to the natives wasn’t actually as bad as it was.
Nope. We never believed that nonsense. The city on a hill nonsense is justification to hide our own greed and imperialism. We knew what we were doing to the natives. Just like we knew what we were doing to the slaves was bad. We did it anyway because of our selfish interests.
> The problem isn’t that we are all sociopaths making up fake motives to justify crimes
No. It's not that we are sociopaths. It's that we are greedy. It's all too human and it's all too mundane.
> Hence the saying “the road to hell is paved with good intentions.”
That's the point. There was never any good intentions. You act like the brits started their empire to do good in the world. No. The british empire, for the first 200 years, was looting, stealing land and transporting african slaves. It was all greed. It's hundreds of years into their empire(s) that the brits invented the 'white man's burden' nonsense.
Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression
#154Earlier quoted context omitted.
Japan, Germany, South Korea, Taiwan, Ukraine. Technically Iraq as well, although I don't think the Iraqis were particularly happy about that.
Iraq is an artificial country created by western powers. Kurdistan (parts of Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran) should probably be a sovereign country, separate from Iraq. Sunnis and Shiites hated their swap of power roles after the 2003 invasion. Those who were elected to government post-2003 were too concerned with punishing the others rather than unifying the country. Also, people lose their minds when basic security is l…
Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
Japan, Germany, South Korea, Taiwan, Ukraine. Technically Iraq as well, although I don't think the Iraqis were particularly happy about that.
Iraq is an artificial country created by western powers. Kurdistan (parts of Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran) should probably be a sovereign country, separate from Iraq. Sunnis and Shiites hated their swap of power roles after the 2003 invasion. Those who were elected to government post-2003 were too concerned with punishing the others rather than unifying the country. Also, people lose their minds when basic security is l…
This is squarely the fault of Donald Rumsfeld, who was given plans pre-war by General Eric Shinseki and the rest of the Joint Chiefs that involved significantly more forces. Instead, Rumsfeld pitched a fit and made them redo the OPLAN so it fit his whole high-tech "revolution in military affairs" crap.
Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
well i’m not going to change that with my guessing but i’d wager that it has more to do with the values of the populace, the willingness of the people to engage in and be ruled by democracy, and the regional stability at the time than anything the US did or didn’t do
I’d argue the US government/military involvement was crucial in both Japan and West Germany. The US military ran their governments for a few years, eliminated their domestic politics from being involved in war/defense decisions, restructured their governments, made excellent choices when it came to social, education, healthcare, transportation, and industrial policies. I would argue that local values played a part, b…
The Marshall Plan.
And people forget that it had quite a lot of opposition back at home in the US.
Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression
#157Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’d argue the US government/military involvement was crucial in both Japan and West Germany. The US military ran their governments for a few years, eliminated their domestic politics from being involved in war/defense decisions, restructured their governments, made excellent choices when it came to social, education, healthcare, transportation, and industrial policies. I would argue that local values played a part, b…
> it was a military autocracy until the 1980s, at which point it made an incredible shift towards democracy and the economic growth story was one of the world’s most amazing The economic growth, or at least the seeds thereof, largely came during Park Chung Hee's dictatorship, which ended in 1979 with his assassination. GDP per capita increased over tenfold during his tenure. The shift towards democracy afterwards was…
Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression
#158Earlier quoted context omitted.
Was it not as follows? Mossadegh wanted the control over Iranian oil back, therefore the US and UK got rid of him which allowed Pahlavī to become dictator and he was supported by them to gain influence, oil, and defense against the Soviet Union. Especially with weapons. But the way he treated the people eventually made them unite behind Chomeini and that was the end for the Shah. This was of course not good, so the U…
The argument was made that the US/UK "installed" the Khomeini regime, which is an utter absurdity. They supported the Shah for realpolitik reasons during the Cold War. Hussein got spanked in 1991 not just because he invaded Kuwait, but because he was also making noises about going after Saudi Arabia. And as much as some people on the Internet think this is a Very Bad Thing, oil is and was a critical part of the globa…
Fair point, I missed installing or did not read it carefully enough, this was at best an unintended consequences. But even without intention, there is still responsibility, at least to some extent.
Which is why a multinational coalition under UN authority, which included several other Arab countries, put Saddam back in his place.
Sure, even if oil was not involved, the invasion of Kuwait or any other country should generally not be tolerated. I mentioned this just to point out how quickly and in some sense arbitrarily judgments can change, Iran is also a major oil producer and there Hussein got support for the invasion. The 2003 invasion on the other hand was simply a crime.
Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression
#159Earlier quoted context omitted.
It’s easy to see what’s wrong with this if you apply it to others. Did the Soviets really believe in Marxism or did they just want to take over in place of the Tsars? Do the Iranian Mullahs believe in Islam or are they just making up excuses too? Did the Pharoahs believe in their mortuary cult or did they just make that stuff up to con people into stacking up big rocks? One thing I’ve learned in my time around here i…
> Did the Soviets really believe in Marxism or did they just want to take over in place of the Tsars? Do the Iranian Mullahs believe in Islam or are they just making up excuses too? Who cares? Your example has no relevance to my assertion. The difference is that the soviets and mullahs started out as marxists and muslims. The british empire didn't start off 'to civilize the world'? For hundreds of years, the brits we…
Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression
#160I've never seen any analysis of why the US was able to install stable, successful democratic governments in Japan and Germany, and generally failed to elsewhere.
The US also came into those countries with massive reconstruction funds. Injecting tons of money buys a certain amount of loyalty, especially from anyone in those countries who did not support the previous regime or had fallen out of love with it. We also promised them protection and trade and for some reason generally made good on that. We didn’t do that with Iran or any of those other countries we messed with durin…
Germany for one apparently gave much more https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_reparations than it got out of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan#Expenditures in reverse. Imagine the allies had extracted much more wealth from Afghanistan or the Irak than they have put into it – itʼs inconceivable.
Slightly alternative explanation for West Germany, combining what others have said:
- First stage: The allies under US leadership were running the country anyway, they did it well and there was sufficient cooperation by Germans, for whom the Germany that was defeated represented an entity utterly discredited on account of the most horrible crimes against humanity.
- Second stage: The feeling “the Americans are actually on our side – defeating us they have liberated us and then helped us to a new state in which we can live better than ever before, plus they are protecting us from the USSR” became more or less mainstream.
(The experience in East Germany was completely different of course.)
So I think the most important factor was that American victory and American predominance were associated with liberation and freedom.