Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently • Hacker News Board

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#61

Post by rvba » Sat, Aug 19, 2023, 10:15 PM UTC

politelemon wrote: post #25

canvascritic wrote: post #3

Man this reminds me of this trip I took to the Maldives as a kid. While spending time with locals, I learned the word "feyli," a term unique to their Dhivehi language. "Feyli" describes the feeling of sand between your toes as waves recede on a beach, a sensation familiar to many but so specific that English doesn't have a singular word for it. Before being introduced to feyli I simply enjoyed beach walks as a sum of…

I did s a search for 'feyli' and it shows that the term is used for the ethnic wear in Maldives. > Feyli (the ethnic attire of the Maldivian) was worn both by men and women in Maldives during the monarchy. Is it the same word used for both things, or maybe a slightly different word?

> “The forest of Skund was indeed enchanted, which was nothing unusual on the Disc, and was also the only forest in the whole universe to be called -- in the local language -- Your Finger You Fool, which was the literal meaning of the word Skund.

> The reason for this is regrettably all too common. When the first explorers from the warm lands around the Circle Sea travelled into the chilly hinterland they filled in the blank spaces on their maps by grabbing the nearest native, pointing at some distant landmark, speaking very clearly in a loud voice, and writing down whatever the bemused man told them. Thus were immortalised in generations of atlases such geographical oddities as Just A Mountain, I Don't Know, What? and, of course, Your Finger You Fool."

--Terry Prachett

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#62

Post by almostnormal » Sat, Aug 19, 2023, 10:35 PM UTC

arrowsmith wrote: post #48

psychphysic wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hah now I'm picturing like that urban legend about Yucatan meaning "I don't know". Op is being asked by natives of he'd like some local clothes while he repeatedly jams his foot into the wet sand and points at it.

It's not really an "urban legend" that Yucatan means "I don't know"; it 's a credible theory that linguists take seriously. You might be thinking of "kangaroo", which is also said to originate from a local word for "I don't know", but in that case it's not a serious hypothesis.

"Vasistas" in french originated from "was ist das?" (what's that?) in german.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transom_(architecture)

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#63

Post by Gabrys1 » Sat, Aug 19, 2023, 11:15 PM UTC

alganet wrote: post #6

That's not a surprise. I mean, it's pretty difficult to have a thought without using language. When we watch a scene, we kinda describe it automatically using words, and that description is bound to be affected by the language used. I wonder what was the everyday experience of a human before language. It must have been pretty different from the world we experience as literate monkeys.

I just wanted to note that it is important to confirm experimentally things that seems obvious: it might not be obvious to another person, you might discover some subtleties, it could be a good experiment in defining a thought formall, etc. And the most importantly: repetition/reproducing result is the base of all science.

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#64

Post by makeitdouble » Sat, Aug 19, 2023, 11:45 PM UTC

hackernewds wrote: post #10

wmlive wrote: post #2

»Language can have a powerful effect on how people experience events. Here, we examine how the languages people speak guide attention and influence what they remember from a visual scene. When hearing a word, listeners activate other similar-sounding words before settling on the correct target. We tested whether this linguistic coactivation during a visual search task changes memory for objects. Bilinguals and monoli…

They say often that French are bad at quick math and Chinese are better due to the nature of their numeric system

French is one of those languages where primary school will have tests on how to write/pronounce straight numbers. Like 71, 82, 93. And some will fail, because it's bonkers.

Quickness is definitely not prioritized.

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#65

Post by thomastjeffery » Sat, Aug 19, 2023, 11:49 PM UTC

canvascritic wrote: post #56

thomastjeffery wrote: post #51

There is a subtle, but important, difference between memory and recall. One is data, the other is a function. I'm not sure how we could possibly measure memory directly. The only thing we can measure is some form of interaction with it, which means we are measuring the interaction itself. Our best understanding of memory (AFAIK) is that it is constructed just-in-time by the process of recall. So does the distinction…

Nice. To liken it to computers, memory is a bit like storage, while recall is the act of retrieving what's stored. The concept of memory being JITed is intriguing. it's reminiscent of the dynamic nature of human cognition. I always like to think about how comprehension influences memory. Like. Can we truly remember something if we don't understand it? Or more precisely can the data be committed to memory losslessly.…

It's pretty well known that memory is lossy. Otherwise witnesses would correctly remember specific details of a crime: in reality, people remember incorrect details quite often.

I wonder if some language patterns are an emergent effect of the way memory is created and reconstructed. There seems to be some mysterious isomorphism here, but no one has really gotten a handle on the specifics of either phenomenon.

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#66

Post by hgsgm » Sat, Aug 19, 2023, 11:50 PM UTC

zodzedzi wrote: post #37

> Bilinguals and monolinguals remembered English competitor words that overlapped phonologically with a spoken English target better than control objects without name overlap. High Spanish proficiency also enhanced memory for Spanish competitors that overlapped across languages. We conclude that linguistic diversity partly accounts for differences in higher cognitive functions... This conclusion sounds like quite the…

Paper conclusions are always leaps.

They are an embarrassment to science, and journals should ban them or move them to the editorial pages. Doing a bit of research shouldn't be a license to speed BS under cover of fact.

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#67

Post by magicalhippo » Sat, Aug 19, 2023, 11:52 PM UTC

azernik wrote: post #32

gumballindie wrote: post #30

This is like that "research" where speakers of different languages percieve time in different ways. I am not sure who funds this type of garbage but it shows that "science" is rifle with ridiculous findings. Suppose their "findings" are true - do I as a dual language speaker remember visual scenes in both ways? Laughable at best. Expressing visual scenes in different ways is obvious, since different languages have di…

Generally research of this type finds that dual language speakers' remembered details depend on which language they've been primed with (ie made to use or listen to just before the activity). It's also much more subtle than the splashy headlines indicate - it's about which details you're more likely to remember, not some fundamentally different experience of the world.

My dad taught our native language to immigrants. I mentioned to him I'd read about a research paper where they'd conducted an experiment which indicated that toddlers recalled events using the words they knew at the time of the event. That is, if they had played with a ball before they learned the word for ball, they would not use the word ball when they were later asked to recall the play session.

My dad responded that it was known within his domain that immigrants who forgot their mother tongue would forget things they learned in their homeland, including stuff they had studied at school or college.

This was some 20 years ago, I haven't dug into it since then, but seems unlikely to me that memory and language isn't tightly linked.

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#68

Post by hgsgm » Sat, Aug 19, 2023, 11:52 PM UTC

alganet wrote: post #35

ajuc wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you try to catch a ball playing some sport are you thinking "I need to catch this ball", or are you imagining its path and yourself moving to catch it? I'm usually talking to myself in my mind, but I can't imagine doing it when speed is important, thinking with words takes like 10 times longer. Or when you look at a photo and think which person is taller - are you thinking in words? Cause I'm imagining cutting a…

I agree. There's a lot of things we do which doesn't require language. It's often there for me though, like a default. I don't think "left leg, right leg" when I'm walking, and I don't think "geez, I'm walking now", but when I'm walking my go-to thinking defaults to some internal monologue: "gonna buy some food", "can I cross the road?", etc. When I go to bed this is more evident. It's silent, dark, and all senses ar…

What happens to that internal monologue when it is obstructed? Like talking on the phone while walking?

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#69

Post by MrVandemar » Sat, Aug 19, 2023, 11:54 PM UTC

canvascritic wrote: post #3

Man this reminds me of this trip I took to the Maldives as a kid. While spending time with locals, I learned the word "feyli," a term unique to their Dhivehi language. "Feyli" describes the feeling of sand between your toes as waves recede on a beach, a sensation familiar to many but so specific that English doesn't have a singular word for it. Before being introduced to feyli I simply enjoyed beach walks as a sum of…

Language and words are so important.

"… they discovered the best way not to be unhappy, was not to have a word for it." — Douglas Adams, Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy

And Newspeak similarly sought to remove the concept of "bad", by making it "ungood" (Orwell, 1984)

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#70

Post by MrVandemar » Sat, Aug 19, 2023, 11:58 PM UTC

hackernewds wrote: post #10

wmlive wrote: post #2

»Language can have a powerful effect on how people experience events. Here, we examine how the languages people speak guide attention and influence what they remember from a visual scene. When hearing a word, listeners activate other similar-sounding words before settling on the correct target. We tested whether this linguistic coactivation during a visual search task changes memory for objects. Bilinguals and monoli…

They say often that French are bad at quick math and Chinese are better due to the nature of their numeric system

It might educational systems at play here.

I've never been to China, and have no idea if this is wide-spread — I saw a documentary on children in China being taught mathematics at an early age using an abacus. Eventually, they remove the abacus but the child still mimes using it. And then gradually this disappears too.

Essentially they're training their muscle-memory to do their maths for them.

It was quite extraordinary to see, especially since I, while I flatter myself I'm reasonably intelligent in some areas, and worked in programming and related areas for many years, my ability to do any maths without a pencil and paper is abysmal. OTOH, it's not impossible I have un-diagnosed dyscalculia.