So many Americans naively believe this fairy story about their country, when the reality is a lot darker and more brutal. The intervention in Iran was neither an isolated event, nor was even close to the first coup that the US perpetrated at the behest of business interests. Starting with Samoa and Hawaii in the 1800s, an extremely violent occupation of the Philippines in the early part of the 20th century, and inter…
70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression
131–140 of 210 posts
Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression
#132I've never seen any analysis of why the US was able to install stable, successful democratic governments in Japan and Germany, and generally failed to elsewhere.
well i’m not going to change that with my guessing but i’d wager that it has more to do with the values of the populace, the willingness of the people to engage in and be ruled by democracy, and the regional stability at the time than anything the US did or didn’t do
I’d argue the US government/military involvement was crucial in both Japan and West Germany. The US military ran their governments for a few years, eliminated their domestic politics from being involved in war/defense decisions, restructured their governments, made excellent choices when it came to social, education, healthcare, transportation, and industrial policies.
I would argue that local values played a part, but an emphasis on education, long term planning, and a lack of US political dysfunction were much more impactful.
Also worth mentioning that the wins over Japan and Germany weee pretty decisive. 1960s South Vietnam, 2001 Afghanistan, and 2003 Iraq (and potentially 1991 Russia) were all pretty ham fisted efforts and there was no US consensus about what to do with the country.
I don’t know enough about 1951 S Korea to say anything useful, except it was a military autocracy until the 1980s, at which point it made an incredible shift towards democracy and the economic growth story was one of the world’s most amazing.
Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression
#133That coup allowed a liberal society to flourish in Iran... now look where they are. I'd rather have US coups than any type of Iran-Russian autocratic regime.
One of the main reasons religion grows very strong in Iran eventually leading to the revolution was the Shah oppression of religious beliefs. Women were beaten in the streets if they had a scarf covering their heads. He was unpopular dictator, but of course the west like friendly dictators.
Now, or soon they will be beaten in the streets for not wearing head concealing clothing. Can't do it right.
Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression
#134Iran was actually rich in the 1970s and women weren't in veils. You can thank the US for that. The revolution happened after.
I don’t really see US foreign policy in that era as imperialistic. That’s giving it too much credit as it implies a degree of even Machiavellian intelligence. The British were imperialistic and they were actually kind of good at it. It was sheer idiocy, an exercise in spending massive amounts of money to build up our own enemies and negate our own supposed values, turning billions away from Western democracy and towa…
> I don’t really see US foreign policy in that era as imperialistic.
US has been imperialistic from birth. Heck the revolutionary war was fought to secure our right to be imperialists and commit genocide against the natives. Our reason for existence is imperialism. Or maybe history is right and a bunch of racist slavers wanted to birth liberty and freedom into the world.
> That’s giving it too much credit as it implies a degree of even Machiavellian intelligence.
From a ragtag group of 13 colonies, we've taken over the world. Not only that, we've taken over the world while having the world believe we are the liberators. There are idiots all over the world who legitimate look to the US as saviors and liberators. Doesn't get any machiavellian than that.
> turning billions away from Western democracy and toward backward totalitarian ideologies that are in the end more hostile to us than the USSR was.
'Western democracy' was the excuse invented to invade and murder tens of millions across the world in the 20th century. Whereas the brits advocated 'white man's burden' in the 19th century to murder and steal. We came up with democracy. Nothing more imperialistic than the cause of spreading democracy.
> Like I said in another reply it was mostly driven by paranoid overreaction to communism.
No. Communism was just an excuse to continue our imperialism. If communism never existed, we'd make up another excuse. What's our problem with Iran now? The USSR has been gone for 30 years and our relations with Iran is as bad as ever?
Stop accepting what dumb historians on TV or news tell you. Try to think for yourself and see if an assertion makes any sense.
Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression
#135Sad to see what Iran has become - no in small part thanks to the US/UK's meddling and installing a crazed theocratic government. The Iranian people deserve so much better - they are a nation of really smart people and would be a beacon in the Middle East if it wasn't for a bunch of religious reactionaries holding power. Some of the best engineers I've ever worked with were expat Iranians who left and have no intentio…
> Sad to see what Iran has become - no in small part thanks to the US/UK's meddling and installing a crazed theocratic government. This is some tinfoil-hatted nonsense. I'll be charitable and assume you're unfamiliar with the history, as opposed to a conspiracy theorist who thinks the CIA is behind everything you think is wrong with the world. Rightly or wrongly, the US and UK went after Mossadegh precisely because t…
Was it not as follows? Mossadegh wanted the control over Iranian oil back, therefore the US and UK got rid of him which allowed Pahlavī to become dictator and he was supported by them to gain influence, oil, and defense against the Soviet Union. Especially with weapons. But the way he treated the people eventually made them unite behind Chomeini and that was the end for the Shah. This was of course not good, so the USA supported Hussein in his war against Iran. He became the enemy when he decided that Kuwait would be an easier target than Iran.
Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression
#136So many Americans naively believe this fairy story about their country, when the reality is a lot darker and more brutal. The intervention in Iran was neither an isolated event, nor was even close to the first coup that the US perpetrated at the behest of business interests. Starting with Samoa and Hawaii in the 1800s, an extremely violent occupation of the Philippines in the early part of the 20th century, and inter…
The U.S. isn’t responsible for Putin coming to power. Putin handpicked himself to succeed Yeltsin.
Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression
#137Iran was actually rich in the 1970s and women weren't in veils. You can thank the US for that. The revolution happened after.
> You can thank the US for that.
you can also thank the US for the coup d'etat that overthrew a democratically elected PM and installed a pro-western dictator who executed dissidents, eventually leading to a student revolution that was hijacked by religious hardliners. but the women didn't have to wear veils, though, right?
Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don’t really see US foreign policy in that era as imperialistic. That’s giving it too much credit as it implies a degree of even Machiavellian intelligence. The British were imperialistic and they were actually kind of good at it. It was sheer idiocy, an exercise in spending massive amounts of money to build up our own enemies and negate our own supposed values, turning billions away from Western democracy and towa…
> I don’t really see US foreign policy in that era as imperialistic. US has been imperialistic from birth. Heck the revolutionary war was fought to secure our right to be imperialists and commit genocide against the natives. Our reason for existence is imperialism. Or maybe history is right and a bunch of racist slavers wanted to birth liberty and freedom into the world. > That’s giving it too much credit as it impli…
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Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
Failed at installing democracies elsewhere? Aside from Afghanistan where has the US done that? More often the US has installed or propped up autocrats w/ varying degrees of success
Japan, Germany, South Korea, Taiwan, Ukraine. Technically Iraq as well, although I don't think the Iraqis were particularly happy about that.
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Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression
#140Earlier quoted context omitted.
Failed at installing democracies elsewhere? Aside from Afghanistan where has the US done that? More often the US has installed or propped up autocrats w/ varying degrees of success
Japan, Germany, South Korea, Taiwan, Ukraine. Technically Iraq as well, although I don't think the Iraqis were particularly happy about that.
Iraq is an artificial country created by western powers.
Kurdistan (parts of Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran) should probably be a sovereign country, separate from Iraq.
Sunnis and Shiites hated their swap of power roles after the 2003 invasion. Those who were elected to government post-2003 were too concerned with punishing the others rather than unifying the country.
Also, people lose their minds when basic security is lacking and the policy of debaathification in post-2003 turned out to create a brain drain from government, military, police, and utilities.
Sometimes I wonder if Iraq’s instability was caused by the US’s migration to high tech military, which reduces the need to have 5x the numbers of soldiers on the ground as happened in Japan and Germany.