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This American Life Retracting "Mr. Daisey & The Apple Factory"

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Re: This American Life Retracting "Mr. Daisey & The Apple Factory"

#231

Post by CamperBob »

batista wrote: post #208
CamperBob wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife and I used to live in China, and we did traveling in both the high and the low places. What was your impression of working conditions on the rural farms that are one of the most often-cited alternatives for many of the Foxconn workers?

My impression is that you should not just a dire or unfair condition based on the existence of an even more dire or unfair condition. If there is a famine in an area, and people are dying, is it OK to offer them food and water in exchange for slave labour? No pay, just food and water, and everybody that doesn't like can go and die of hunger. How does this deal sound? A forced choice is not much of a choice. Also chec…

If there is a famine in an area, and people are dying, is it OK to offer them food and water in exchange for slave labour? No pay, just food and water, and everybody that doesn't like can go and die of hunger. How does this deal sound?

My impression is that like most Westerners living today, you have no earthly idea what the term "slave labor" actually means, so we'll leave it at that. Peace.

Re: This American Life Retracting "Mr. Daisey & The Apple Factory"

#232

Post by batista »

CamperBob wrote: post #231
batista wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My impression is that you should not just a dire or unfair condition based on the existence of an even more dire or unfair condition. If there is a famine in an area, and people are dying, is it OK to offer them food and water in exchange for slave labour? No pay, just food and water, and everybody that doesn't like can go and die of hunger. How does this deal sound? A forced choice is not much of a choice. Also chec…

If there is a famine in an area, and people are dying, is it OK to offer them food and water in exchange for slave labour? No pay, just food and water, and everybody that doesn't like can go and die of hunger. How does this deal sound? My impression is that like most Westerners living today, you have no earthly idea what the term "slave labor" actually means, so we'll leave it at that. Peace.

> My impression is that like most Westerners living today, you have no earthly idea what the term "slave labor" actually means, so we'll leave it at that. Peace.

And my impression is that I very much have an accurate idea, plus I hardly consider myself a "westerner", and not only because I'm some 15,000 miles away from the nearest Walmart. It's not like we grew up with Fox News (or NPR at best) -- we have a penchant for history in these here parts plus we have been living it in the live, frequently (including now).

OTOH, you might be unaware that beside the basic determinant (i.e no choice on the matter), slave labour has had a great variety of working conditions in the past. Some were even better that Foxconn by a lot (say, a black lady cooking and/or taking care of the kids in a huge Southern estate would often be treated quite like family -- or in Ancient Greece slaves were even able to amass their own fortune and run businesses, while remaining legally slaves).

Re: This American Life Retracting "Mr. Daisey & The Apple Factory"

#233

Post by wildster »

Retric wrote: post #159
jbooth wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NPR isn't supposed to be leftist, it's supposed to be journalism. That's what separates them from other outlets, they're either focused on advocacy (fox, currentTV) or entertainment (CNN, MSNBC).

In journalism circles you can often hear that the truth leans to the left. When things like Evolution and Climate Change are brought up you can either go with the facts which leans left or teach the controversy which leans right but there is no safe middle ground. The left has plenty of less than rational views, but when you simply speech the truth your far less likely to seem to lean to the right.

Why do facts lean left?

Re: This American Life Retracting "Mr. Daisey & The Apple Factory"

#234

Post by Produce »

pron wrote: post #229
gwright wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how would you compare the work in the factories to being a Chinese farm worker, for example? Why are millions choosing factories over farms? I think it is more important that there is a trend towards improved work environments and opportunities than bemoaning the fact that any particular work environment isn't as good as some cushy 1st-world white-collar job.

Oh, no. Again with the "choosing". Since I read similar arguments quite often here on HN, I want to give a general, rather than particular answer. The short version is, people under duress can't really "choose" anything, even if it may seem to some free-market capitalists as if they do. Let me paint a fictional picture for you. Say there's this island that's been ravaged by natural disasters and famine, and its entir…

As another anecdote for the lack of social mobility that the vast majority of people experience, how many people born into wealth has anyone witnessed transition into the working class? What's the ratio of that population to people born into wealth who stay wealthy? Just as it is extremely difficult to be born poor and end up rich, so it is the other way round. People often forget the ever looming hidden factors in these situations; morale and mind-set. From all of the research I've done on what makes people successful, it's all in the mind. From all the research I've done on what makes people change, it's all in the environment. In other words, mindset is intimately linked with the conditions one finds himself in which in turn dictate actions. A nuance of this is that mind-set also modifies environment which, in turn, affects mind-set again. It's a self-modifying system; the feedback loop that is your consciousness.

This is all hardly surprising - just as individual physical particles have inertia, so do we.

Re: This American Life Retracting "Mr. Daisey & The Apple Factory"

#235

Post by rit »

Notably as well, This American Life released the podcast and audio stream early to their website so everyone could hear it. I listened to the podcast this morning and was impressed at the way they approached it.

A particularly poignant bit for me was near the end, as Ira Glass is having a conversation with Rob Schmitz. I'm paraphrasing slightly from memory. Ira asks Rob after discussing the fact that it is established fact that many Foxconn workers do double shifts and insane amounts of overtime, "I own many of these products, should I feel bad?"

Rob replies (again paraphrasing), "It isn't my job as a reporter to tell you how to feel. It is my job to gather facts and report them as accurately as possible and let you decide."

I feel like that is one of the most important ethics missing from so much of journalism today. And it isn't just Fox News: almost every journalism source which fits into mainstream reporting these days seems to want to editorialize the news and push us on how we should feel.

Re: This American Life Retracting "Mr. Daisey & The Apple Factory"

#236

Post by smithian »

wildster wrote: post #233
Retric wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In journalism circles you can often hear that the truth leans to the left. When things like Evolution and Climate Change are brought up you can either go with the facts which leans left or teach the controversy which leans right but there is no safe middle ground. The left has plenty of less than rational views, but when you simply speech the truth your far less likely to seem to lean to the right.

Why do facts lean left?

It's more that the right leans false.

Re: This American Life Retracting "Mr. Daisey & The Apple Factory"

#237

Post by [deleted] »

batista wrote: post #232
CamperBob wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is a famine in an area, and people are dying, is it OK to offer them food and water in exchange for slave labour? No pay, just food and water, and everybody that doesn't like can go and die of hunger. How does this deal sound? My impression is that like most Westerners living today, you have no earthly idea what the term "slave labor" actually means, so we'll leave it at that. Peace.

> My impression is that like most Westerners living today, you have no earthly idea what the term "slave labor" actually means, so we'll leave it at that. Peace. And my impression is that I very much have an accurate idea, plus I hardly consider myself a "westerner", and not only because I'm some 15,000 miles away from the nearest Walmart. It's not like we grew up with Fox News (or NPR at best) -- we have a penchant…

[deleted]

Re: This American Life Retracting "Mr. Daisey & The Apple Factory"

#238

Post by bdunbar »

tbsdy wrote: post #176
bdunbar wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not _supposed_ to be leftist, but that's sure the way they lean. I hear this asked, once in a while, on WPR, when the station manager is on a call-in show in the morning: why do you guys program to the left. And the answer is (I'm paraphrasing) That's who our audience is, so that's what we program for. Heck, last week he as much admitted as such when he noted that they focused more on politics since the electio…

I really think that if the manager said this, then there would be major ructions. Can you point to what he said exactly? It would be a scandal if this is what he really said.

I suck - meant to add this last week.

The things I do ...

Joy Cardin Show Dir WPR Mike Crane after 27:48 Greg in Stevens Point "I get tired of the political talk in the first two segments (tl:dl - he doesn't like politics, would donate, would like the morning programs to be more like the mid-day one, with gardening, home handy tips and various other stuff) "It's just listening to college teachers with an opinion .. it never ends .. been going on for three, four, five years however long it's been."

Mike WPR Director "Bascially starting with the election two years ago now that there just seemed to be a lot more politics to talk about. that we had a significant change in governance that I think has caused a lot of people to be curious about it maybe we'll find after this next election that things will shift a different way and there will be other things to talk about."

The second comment was rich. Greg complained about diversity - race issues. "Only one person of color."

Mike:(paraphrase) We have a Latina, too. And we're working on some other stuff.

The 'person of color' is the (imho) best guy _on_ WPR, Jonathan Overby. His 'Higher Ground' used to be a really entertaining live show with an audiance, live music. A few years ago they cut it back to Overby playing records.

I miss the way it used to be.

http://wpr.org/higherground/

Now, Crane's comments can be seen as innocuous. And, maybe, he really did mean them that way.

But it's funny that the swing to 'talk about politics' didn't happen until after Walker (R) was elected. And that he said it would swing right back if he was voted out.

Re: This American Life Retracting "Mr. Daisey & The Apple Factory"

#239

Post by [deleted] »

tbsdy wrote: post #176
bdunbar wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not _supposed_ to be leftist, but that's sure the way they lean. I hear this asked, once in a while, on WPR, when the station manager is on a call-in show in the morning: why do you guys program to the left. And the answer is (I'm paraphrasing) That's who our audience is, so that's what we program for. Heck, last week he as much admitted as such when he noted that they focused more on politics since the electio…

I really think that if the manager said this, then there would be major ructions. Can you point to what he said exactly? It would be a scandal if this is what he really said.

[deleted]

Re: This American Life Retracting "Mr. Daisey & The Apple Factory"

#240

Post by [deleted] »

tbsdy wrote: post #176
bdunbar wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not _supposed_ to be leftist, but that's sure the way they lean. I hear this asked, once in a while, on WPR, when the station manager is on a call-in show in the morning: why do you guys program to the left. And the answer is (I'm paraphrasing) That's who our audience is, so that's what we program for. Heck, last week he as much admitted as such when he noted that they focused more on politics since the electio…

I really think that if the manager said this, then there would be major ructions. Can you point to what he said exactly? It would be a scandal if this is what he really said.

[deleted]
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