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Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

science.org

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Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#21

Post by teaearlgraycold »

alganet wrote: post #18
Swizec wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Visual Thinking is a great book that goes more into this. Yes it’s a spectrum and different modes of thinking are better for different tasks. The author of Visual Thinking describes 3 types: linear language thinking, abstract visualizer thinking (common to engineers, mathematicians etc), and object visualizer thinking (common to artists, machinists, etc). Most people can do all 3 with different levels of proficiency/…

To me, this section of the article deserves more attention: > They confessed they had thought it was a fictional concept made up as a narrative device in the TV show Dexter I imagine a person saying "I have an internal narrator", and other person thinking "shit, I don't hear stuff like TV shows, that person is different". A misunderstanding. I can bet that if the expression "internal narrator" was changed to "an inte…

It's pretty close to hearing. Maybe 75% of the way there? Obviously it's a bit different than hearing with your ears but it's got almost all of the same information - except positional.

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#22

Post by alganet »

schrodinger wrote: post #20
alganet wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, this section of the article deserves more attention: > They confessed they had thought it was a fictional concept made up as a narrative device in the TV show Dexter I imagine a person saying "I have an internal narrator", and other person thinking "shit, I don't hear stuff like TV shows, that person is different". A misunderstanding. I can bet that if the expression "internal narrator" was changed to "an inte…

But I _do_ hear it, accent, inflection, pauses, and all. Not through my ears of course but a very close simulation. I don’t relate to the inner monologue as pictures reference at all!

Ok then, let's rephrase to "an internal voice that you can feel, but it's not heard by your ears". It's not sensory.

The phrase doesn't matter. What I want to highlight, is that I can never describe my internal thoughts exactly. There's always a chance for misunderstanding (me not being able to put in words my thought process, or you not being able to translate my description to a meaningful experience to you).

If a better method for determining this appears (eg. scanning some brain areas), then I could be convinced. Otherwise, it's all anedoctal.

At this point of the discussion, it's time for p-zombies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie

This thought experiment expresses well the problem of asserting someone else's consciousness experience. It can't be done yet.

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#23

Post by [deleted] »

schrodinger wrote: post #20
alganet wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, this section of the article deserves more attention: > They confessed they had thought it was a fictional concept made up as a narrative device in the TV show Dexter I imagine a person saying "I have an internal narrator", and other person thinking "shit, I don't hear stuff like TV shows, that person is different". A misunderstanding. I can bet that if the expression "internal narrator" was changed to "an inte…

But I _do_ hear it, accent, inflection, pauses, and all. Not through my ears of course but a very close simulation. I don’t relate to the inner monologue as pictures reference at all!

[deleted]

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#24

Post by LordGrey »

I wonder how a group of aphantasics would affect the results. Everyones' mechanisms for remembering things is undoubtedly different, but aphantasia means you don't have mental imagery to consult. Does this mean that aphantasics rely more on linguistic cues and connections?

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#25

Post by politelemon »

canvascritic wrote: post #3

Man this reminds me of this trip I took to the Maldives as a kid. While spending time with locals, I learned the word "feyli," a term unique to their Dhivehi language. "Feyli" describes the feeling of sand between your toes as waves recede on a beach, a sensation familiar to many but so specific that English doesn't have a singular word for it. Before being introduced to feyli I simply enjoyed beach walks as a sum of…

I did s a search for 'feyli' and it shows that the term is used for the ethnic wear in Maldives.

> Feyli (the ethnic attire of the Maldivian) was worn both by men and women in Maldives during the monarchy.

Is it the same word used for both things, or maybe a slightly different word?

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#26

Post by ajuc »

alganet wrote: post #6

That's not a surprise. I mean, it's pretty difficult to have a thought without using language. When we watch a scene, we kinda describe it automatically using words, and that description is bound to be affected by the language used. I wonder what was the everyday experience of a human before language. It must have been pretty different from the world we experience as literate monkeys.

When you try to catch a ball playing some sport are you thinking "I need to catch this ball", or are you imagining its path and yourself moving to catch it? I'm usually talking to myself in my mind, but I can't imagine doing it when speed is important, thinking with words takes like 10 times longer.

Or when you look at a photo and think which person is taller - are you thinking in words? Cause I'm imagining cutting and pasting one person next to the other and comparing them visually.

When you try to remember a song melody you probably don't use words to describe the sounds (it was c, g, e, d, ..) you probably imagine the melody in your head, right?

I think most (all?) people use both language and other modes of thinking, just the proportions are person-specific.

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#27

Post by passion__desire »

LordGrey wrote: post #24

I wonder how a group of aphantasics would affect the results. Everyones' mechanisms for remembering things is undoubtedly different, but aphantasia means you don't have mental imagery to consult. Does this mean that aphantasics rely more on linguistic cues and connections?

I think using a language is like constructing a scene graph (computer graphics). Using language i.e. a scene graph representaiton to manipulate ideas and thoughts is far more efficient and faster. Just a guess. Different languages based on primitives might construct different scene graphs.

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#28

Post by abdullahkhalids »

alganet wrote: post #6

That's not a surprise. I mean, it's pretty difficult to have a thought without using language. When we watch a scene, we kinda describe it automatically using words, and that description is bound to be affected by the language used. I wonder what was the everyday experience of a human before language. It must have been pretty different from the world we experience as literate monkeys.

The goal of scientific work, is often not to confirm whether some effect exists - its often obvious it is, but to quantify the strength of the effect.

They have done exactly this in this in the study, in fact, along a number of dimensions. Though I won't comment on the validity of their statistics.

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#29

Post by tired-turtle »

politelemon wrote: post #25
canvascritic wrote: post #3

Man this reminds me of this trip I took to the Maldives as a kid. While spending time with locals, I learned the word "feyli," a term unique to their Dhivehi language. "Feyli" describes the feeling of sand between your toes as waves recede on a beach, a sensation familiar to many but so specific that English doesn't have a singular word for it. Before being introduced to feyli I simply enjoyed beach walks as a sum of…

I did s a search for 'feyli' and it shows that the term is used for the ethnic wear in Maldives. > Feyli (the ethnic attire of the Maldivian) was worn both by men and women in Maldives during the monarchy. Is it the same word used for both things, or maybe a slightly different word?

For reference, here’s a Dhivehi-English dictionary. https://twothousandisles.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/dhiv...

(It lists only ethnic wear as a translation for “feyli.”)

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#30

Post by gumballindie »

This is like that "research" where speakers of different languages percieve time in different ways.

I am not sure who funds this type of garbage but it shows that "science" is rifle with ridiculous findings.

Suppose their "findings" are true - do I as a dual language speaker remember visual scenes in both ways? Laughable at best. Expressing visual scenes in different ways is obvious, since different languages have different constructs, but that shouldn't be comflated with experience.

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