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Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

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Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#11

Post by Swizec »

alganet wrote: post #6

That's not a surprise. I mean, it's pretty difficult to have a thought without using language. When we watch a scene, we kinda describe it automatically using words, and that description is bound to be affected by the language used. I wonder what was the everyday experience of a human before language. It must have been pretty different from the world we experience as literate monkeys.

> it's pretty difficult to have a thought without using language

You get to be today’s 10,000! (xkcd reference)

Not everyone has an internal monologue! 50% to 60% people experience their thoughts completely nonverbally. There isn’t a voice constantly narrating their lives. Some people don’t even process words as words but add pictures instead.

Best part: the two groups don’t realize the other group even exists. We all think everyone thinks in the same way as us.

Sauce: https://www.iflscience.com/people-with-no-internal-monologue...

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#12

Post by [deleted] »

Swizec wrote: post #11
alganet wrote: post #6

That's not a surprise. I mean, it's pretty difficult to have a thought without using language. When we watch a scene, we kinda describe it automatically using words, and that description is bound to be affected by the language used. I wonder what was the everyday experience of a human before language. It must have been pretty different from the world we experience as literate monkeys.

> it's pretty difficult to have a thought without using language You get to be today’s 10,000! (xkcd reference) Not everyone has an internal monologue ! 50% to 60% people experience their thoughts completely nonverbally. There isn’t a voice constantly narrating their lives. Some people don’t even process words as words but add pictures instead. Best part: the two groups don’t realize the other group even exists. We a…

[deleted]

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#13

Post by tekla »

Swizec wrote: post #11
alganet wrote: post #6

That's not a surprise. I mean, it's pretty difficult to have a thought without using language. When we watch a scene, we kinda describe it automatically using words, and that description is bound to be affected by the language used. I wonder what was the everyday experience of a human before language. It must have been pretty different from the world we experience as literate monkeys.

> it's pretty difficult to have a thought without using language You get to be today’s 10,000! (xkcd reference) Not everyone has an internal monologue ! 50% to 60% people experience their thoughts completely nonverbally. There isn’t a voice constantly narrating their lives. Some people don’t even process words as words but add pictures instead. Best part: the two groups don’t realize the other group even exists. We a…

Being unable to debate with yourself in your head must really suck.

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#15

Post by retrac »

Swizec wrote: post #11
alganet wrote: post #6

That's not a surprise. I mean, it's pretty difficult to have a thought without using language. When we watch a scene, we kinda describe it automatically using words, and that description is bound to be affected by the language used. I wonder what was the everyday experience of a human before language. It must have been pretty different from the world we experience as literate monkeys.

> it's pretty difficult to have a thought without using language You get to be today’s 10,000! (xkcd reference) Not everyone has an internal monologue ! 50% to 60% people experience their thoughts completely nonverbally. There isn’t a voice constantly narrating their lives. Some people don’t even process words as words but add pictures instead. Best part: the two groups don’t realize the other group even exists. We a…

This claim has always been very odd to me. My own thinking is, rather obviously, both. I have an inner monologue but it's not entirely word-based. There are mental visual images, and I often gesture with my hands reorganizing imaginary collections of objects while arguing with myself. There's also words going on too.

There is also thinking through proprioception. The sense of awareness of the relative placement of the body in space. That, like the other ways of thinking, also overlaps quite a lot with both visual thinking (moving around imaginary objects) and lingual thinking (writing words in the air idly or sub-vocalization). It is probably not appreciated enough as a mode of thought.

Anyway, I suspect it's something of a false dichotomy, and it's not a binary/multi-way clean split, but that most people think like I do -- in a mix of modes, to varying degrees, using all their senses, all their models of the world, simultaneously. But the assumption that I'm relatively normal is the usual conceit here, isn't it? :)

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#16

Post by alganet »

Swizec wrote: post #11
alganet wrote: post #6

That's not a surprise. I mean, it's pretty difficult to have a thought without using language. When we watch a scene, we kinda describe it automatically using words, and that description is bound to be affected by the language used. I wonder what was the everyday experience of a human before language. It must have been pretty different from the world we experience as literate monkeys.

> it's pretty difficult to have a thought without using language You get to be today’s 10,000! (xkcd reference) Not everyone has an internal monologue ! 50% to 60% people experience their thoughts completely nonverbally. There isn’t a voice constantly narrating their lives. Some people don’t even process words as words but add pictures instead. Best part: the two groups don’t realize the other group even exists. We a…

I heard this many times, but I'm guarded about the conclusions. This whole thing depends on people stating how they think.

When I say "I have an internal voice", some people might misunderstand this phenomenon as something more than it is. For example, one might hear it and think I actually experience an audible narrator.

I have an internal monologue, but I don't experience an audible voice. It's not a sensory thing, but there is a clear "lookup word, form phrase" thing going on internally, in which language plays an essential role. If I wasn't curious about how that works, or interested in the subject, perhaps I wouldn't have noticed that it is there.

Similarly, I know I have some picture based thoughts as well. I can't avoid but have it. Maybe if I was more interested on that, I would have noticed it more proeminently than my language-based stuff.

In other words, I do believe we have varying degrees of mental models, but I just can't grasp how can an experiment could validate someone thinks "completely nonverbally". The brain doesn't even have a single "language area", it's spread all over the place and can be highly plastic depending on the individual. How can we even measure how a person thinks?

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#17

Post by Swizec »

retrac wrote: post #15
Swizec wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's pretty difficult to have a thought without using language You get to be today’s 10,000! (xkcd reference) Not everyone has an internal monologue ! 50% to 60% people experience their thoughts completely nonverbally. There isn’t a voice constantly narrating their lives. Some people don’t even process words as words but add pictures instead. Best part: the two groups don’t realize the other group even exists. We a…

This claim has always been very odd to me. My own thinking is, rather obviously, both . I have an inner monologue but it's not entirely word-based. There are mental visual images, and I often gesture with my hands reorganizing imaginary collections of objects while arguing with myself. There's also words going on too. There is also thinking through proprioception. The sense of awareness of the relative placement of t…

Visual Thinking is a great book that goes more into this.

Yes it’s a spectrum and different modes of thinking are better for different tasks. The author of Visual Thinking describes 3 types: linear language thinking, abstract visualizer thinking (common to engineers, mathematicians etc), and object visualizer thinking (common to artists, machinists, etc). Most people can do all 3 with different levels of proficiency/comfort, but only 1 is usually the primary.

The dichotomy I mentioned is about having or not having that inner monologue/narrator.

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#18

Post by alganet »

Swizec wrote: post #17
retrac wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This claim has always been very odd to me. My own thinking is, rather obviously, both . I have an inner monologue but it's not entirely word-based. There are mental visual images, and I often gesture with my hands reorganizing imaginary collections of objects while arguing with myself. There's also words going on too. There is also thinking through proprioception. The sense of awareness of the relative placement of t…

Visual Thinking is a great book that goes more into this. Yes it’s a spectrum and different modes of thinking are better for different tasks. The author of Visual Thinking describes 3 types: linear language thinking, abstract visualizer thinking (common to engineers, mathematicians etc), and object visualizer thinking (common to artists, machinists, etc). Most people can do all 3 with different levels of proficiency/…

To me, this section of the article deserves more attention:

> They confessed they had thought it was a fictional concept made up as a narrative device in the TV show Dexter

I imagine a person saying "I have an internal narrator", and other person thinking "shit, I don't hear stuff like TV shows, that person is different". A misunderstanding.

I can bet that if the expression "internal narrator" was changed to "an internal voice that you can feel but cannot hear", more people would say they have it, and those poll numbers would change.

Re: Speakers of different languages remember visual scenes differently

#20

Post by schrodinger »

alganet wrote: post #18
Swizec wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Visual Thinking is a great book that goes more into this. Yes it’s a spectrum and different modes of thinking are better for different tasks. The author of Visual Thinking describes 3 types: linear language thinking, abstract visualizer thinking (common to engineers, mathematicians etc), and object visualizer thinking (common to artists, machinists, etc). Most people can do all 3 with different levels of proficiency/…

To me, this section of the article deserves more attention: > They confessed they had thought it was a fictional concept made up as a narrative device in the TV show Dexter I imagine a person saying "I have an internal narrator", and other person thinking "shit, I don't hear stuff like TV shows, that person is different". A misunderstanding. I can bet that if the expression "internal narrator" was changed to "an inte…

But I _do_ hear it, accent, inflection, pauses, and all. Not through my ears of course but a very close simulation. I don’t relate to the inner monologue as pictures reference at all!
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