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Ask HN: Why did Microsoft, Meta, and PayPal update their ToS today?

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Re: Ask HN: Why did Microsoft, Meta, and PayPal update their ToS today?

#101

Post by hnbad »

withinboredom wrote: post #79
pwdisswordfishc wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, at some point someone has probably written a copy.

I thought contracts can’t be copyrighted? There is too much similarity between them for it to make any sense.

No, that's nonsense. I don't know if there's a special exemption in the US but contracts and policies can be and absolutely are under copyright. Individual clauses might not be but the contract in its entirety likely meets the threshold of originality required for it to not simply be considered a plain collection of facts.

The similarity between standard contracts does make it harder to demonstrate a copyright violation based on the text alone though.

Re: Ask HN: Why did Microsoft, Meta, and PayPal update their ToS today?

#102

Post by FranGro78 »

nabogh wrote: post #90
Hackbraten wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I do is spot check, i.e. open an agreement, pick two or three spots at random, and do my best to read and understand those. My hope is if just 1000 people did that, they’d be able to collectively spot unexpected/unacceptable terms and make them public.

Good idea. I might start doing this

Sounds like building something simple that aids in tracking “coverage” of reviewing ToSs could be useful to increase that the odds of spotting something untoward?

Iirc there was (is?) a site which gives a rating to the various license agreements of popular services and the like, so maybe it’s a solved problem?

Re: Ask HN: Why did Microsoft, Meta, and PayPal update their ToS today?

#103

Post by j-bos »

oever wrote: post #76
jupp0r wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can build this with what Github offers for free to open source projects.

Catch 22: first agree to the Microsoft GitHub ToS. Or you can use a friendlier service like the one provided by Codeberg. https://docs.codeberg.org/getting-started/what-is-codeberg/#...

Well consumers of the diff aren't yet required to agree.

Re: Ask HN: Why did Microsoft, Meta, and PayPal update their ToS today?

#104

Post by throwaway290 »

ssl232 wrote: post #62
deely3 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, just change place of work everytime when company asks you to do somwthing with any Microsoft product. Is this your solution?

Are the terms for Microsoft business customers different to those for end users, with regards to privacy and tracking? Can my ssl232@mycompany.com email provided by Office365 get tracked around the internet just the same as ssl232@gmail.com?

It probably is tracked but you don't care unless you are using company provided accounts/infra to do personal stuff and then that's your actual problem

Re: Ask HN: Why did Microsoft, Meta, and PayPal update their ToS today?

#105

Post by bilsbie »

xyzzy123 wrote: post #83
kramerger wrote: post #43

I tried to read some of them to see what has changed. I really tried... If any lawyers from the future are reading this: It was impossible for me to see what I was agreeing to. Furthermore, I was not given a chance to not agree with these (unknown) changes.

More or less you should assume that any consumer contract promises you exactly the minimum allowable within the framework of applicable laws. That is the intent. Practically what this means is that it is useless to negotiate with big companies or really even read their terms (unless you have skills to spot errors) - the best one can do is support campaigns for expanded privacy laws, consumer rights etc.

I like that strategy but what’s stopping them from saying they get your car or something really outrageous?

Re: Ask HN: Why did Microsoft, Meta, and PayPal update their ToS today?

#106

Post by spacecadet »

cal85 wrote: post #82
uptie wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non starter is a term often overused

If your point is that its use is invalid here, then say why.

Because this is not a non-starter as suggested. I leave services because of their terms... I have rebuilt services because of their terms... You start what need to.

Re: Ask HN: Why did Microsoft, Meta, and PayPal update their ToS today?

#107

Post by __s »

bilsbie wrote: post #105
xyzzy123 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More or less you should assume that any consumer contract promises you exactly the minimum allowable within the framework of applicable laws. That is the intent. Practically what this means is that it is useless to negotiate with big companies or really even read their terms (unless you have skills to spot errors) - the best one can do is support campaigns for expanded privacy laws, consumer rights etc.

I like that strategy but what’s stopping them from saying they get your car or something really outrageous?

It wouldn't hold up in court. Just because you agree to a contract doesn't mean it's legally binding

Re: Ask HN: Why did Microsoft, Meta, and PayPal update their ToS today?

#109

Post by __s »

Hackbraten wrote: post #88
kwanbix wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is crazy how unreasonable the world of law is. Just some days ago, I installed some game (Assassins Creed I think?) and it had 3 agreements to read, each one a kilometer long (just a figure of speech). Really? To play a game? Of course nobody reads them and just press Accept.

What I do is spot check, i.e. open an agreement, pick two or three spots at random, and do my best to read and understand those. My hope is if just 1000 people did that, they’d be able to collectively spot unexpected/unacceptable terms and make them public.

I remember seeing iTunes terms tell me I could not use the software to run a nuclear reactor

Re: Ask HN: Why did Microsoft, Meta, and PayPal update their ToS today?

#110

Post by datavirtue »

deely3 wrote: post #59
throwaway290 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. And it's actually quite easy for some of these products (except maybe for PayPal if you don't have a bank account).

Yeah, just change place of work everytime when company asks you to do somwthing with any Microsoft product. Is this your solution?

Fast approaching. I used to be a fairly happy Microsoft....uh...person-slash-developer. It isn't worth the stress of trying to make their shit work these days. Their last chance with me was the Power Platform. Absolutely horrid POS. Then a story breaks that reveals epic security flaws in the same platform (and across Azure nonetheless). High amount of wtf moments. Stay away for mental health purposes...I'm serious.
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