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Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged Maui rebuilds

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Re: Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged Maui rebuilds

#61

Post by churchill »

gottorf wrote: post #56
churchill wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a libertarian, I'd say yes, but I don't want to start a shitstorm, so...

Even a libertarian would agree that some small level of taxation is necessary to fund the apparatus of the state that would enforce property rights and contracts, safeguard the border from invasion, and whatnot. One can only dream of a time and place where government is only funded by a strict land-value tax, though...

Lol - if you study libertarianism deeply, you'll find out most of these edge cases you think a centralized government is needed can be provided by a free market. In the Private Production of Defense, Hoppe argues that property owners and businesses can buy covergae from insurance agencies who will then have a vested interest in keeping their houses and communities crime-free.

Likewise, in a contract republic (or a charter city) individuals will agree to a neutral third party to arbitrate between them if they ever have a disagreement. This can be anyone from a spiritual authority they both respect, an authority in their industry, or a private court that's built a reputation for fairness, promising to pay the private court a percentage of any arbitration settlement they bring before it.

And if the court as much as makes one unfair ruling, it will drive away new business from parties who want a neutral third party. In a contract republic, individuals will be free to have their case judged by any judge, as long as both parties agree beforehand.

Opening the justice market will make sure crime gets punished, expedite justice, and reduce its cost.

Re: Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged Maui rebuilds

#62

Post by churchill »

pixl97 wrote: post #60
ryaneager wrote: post #10

It almost as if housing is a human right and not an investment opportunity for the wealthy to exploit.

No, you're wrong, I your local trillionaire am totally allow to buy up all the housing on the planet and let you rats sink! There is nothing that could possibly go wrong with this idea, it's what pure capitalism demands!

Buy it up, and then?

If there's no government-enforced zoning restriction on new buildings (which are really monopolies on land use granted to existing landlords), new buildings will flood the market once you jack up prices.

A true monopoly can only survive by using government regulation to enforce its position - if not for senseless zoning regulation (government-granted land use monopolies granted to the middle-class in return for votes), housing wouldn't be an issue in the US.

So, it's not a capitalism/free market problem, dislocations in market are caused by government meddling.

Re: Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged Maui rebuilds

#63

Post by pixl97 »

hn8305823 wrote: post #48
Ekaros wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is probably though process. But why not allow sales on valuation that matches last year for example? That should be close enough to fair market value and allow people to start rebuilding with the money.

> why not allow sales on valuation that matches last year for example? That should be close enough to fair market value Fair market value is what a willing buyer and seller agree on. Nothing more, nothing less. Who are you, me, or any other disinterested party to decide if, when, and for how much someone sells their land for?

Because in magical fairytale land this is how things work.

In reality shit typically gets a lot more complicated when you have one party that has just experienced a disaster and may have lost everything, including their loved ones. And another party with lots of money and large numbers of paid individuals enacting a coordinated plan.

Re: Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged Maui rebuilds

#64

Post by pixl97 »

oceanplexian wrote: post #42
toomuchtodo wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very common in disaster scenarios to put limits on trade or commerce when an emergency is declared. Emergency powers are broad, both at the state and federal levels. You are free to your opinion of course, the people of Hawaii will decide with their vote if the governor runs again. The governor is doing what they believe to best for their constituents. No solution is perfect. Democracy!

> Emergency powers are broad, both at the state and federal levels. This is often repeated by the media, but no, emergency powers aren't a magic card you can pull out to ignore the law. Emergency powers don't supersede the Constitution. The government preventing the sale of a property without any compensation would be very clearly considered a "taking". For example, even in cases of Eminent Domain the government stil…

Which is why these actions are generally limited in both scope and time, but 'limited' and non-existant are two different things.

Re: Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged Maui rebuilds

#65

Post by pixl97 »

slaw wrote: post #38
toomuchtodo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are technically correct, which is the best kind of correct. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy > Representative democracy, also known as indirect democracy, is a type of democracy where elected people represent a group of people, in contrast to direct democracy. Nearly all modern Western-style democracies function as some type of representative democracy.

Representative democracy would be there if major of the burned city makes the decision.

Do you just keep making up new definitions as you see fit? There is a well defined order of how our 'representational democracy' works, and in every state in the US the state is the ultimate arbiter of authority as defined per their constitutions.

Re: Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged Maui rebuilds

#66

Post by pixl97 »

churchill wrote: post #62
pixl97 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you're wrong, I your local trillionaire am totally allow to buy up all the housing on the planet and let you rats sink! There is nothing that could possibly go wrong with this idea, it's what pure capitalism demands!

Buy it up, and then? If there's no government-enforced zoning restriction on new buildings (which are really monopolies on land use granted to existing landlords), new buildings will flood the market once you jack up prices. A true monopoly can only survive by using government regulation to enforce its position - if not for senseless zoning regulation (government-granted land use monopolies granted to the middle-clas…

>If there's no government-enforced zoning restriction on new buildings (which are really monopolies on land use granted to existing landlords),

If you live in binary land, yea... to bad we live in the real world where things are a lot more complicated.

Lets say we lived on an island that had the water resources for 1000 residences. Cool, now we've set limits on the total number of people we can support without things falling apart or costs massively increasing. In rational world the democratic representation sets up a government and creates a set of rules zoning this. In your backwards broken shithole, the first developer with a billion dollars comes in and builds 10,000 houses and everyone is fucked.

These things are very hard to balance. And you're correct, the 'average' voter which tends to correlate with homeowner will vote in their best interest of increasing home prices once they own one. When you strip that away you typically get massive developers wanting to create as many houses as possible, which may or may not work depending on the limitations of the land this occurs on.

Re: Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged Maui rebuilds

#67

Post by dragonwriter »

churchill wrote: post #61
gottorf wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even a libertarian would agree that some small level of taxation is necessary to fund the apparatus of the state that would enforce property rights and contracts, safeguard the border from invasion, and whatnot. One can only dream of a time and place where government is only funded by a strict land-value tax, though...

Lol - if you study libertarianism deeply, you'll find out most of these edge cases you think a centralized government is needed can be provided by a free market. In the Private Production of Defense, Hoppe argues that property owners and businesses can buy covergae from insurance agencies who will then have a vested interest in keeping their houses and communities crime-free. Likewise, in a contract republic (or a ch…

> Lol - if you study libertarianism deeply, you'll find out most of these edge cases you think a centralized government is needed can be provided by a free market. In the Private Production of Defense, Hoppe argues that property owners and businesses can buy covergae from insurance agencies who will then have a vested interest in keeping their houses and communities crime-free.

If, instead of studying libertarian theory, you study history deeply, you’ll find that there is no magical distinction between private actors and government, and that when you rely on non-governmental actors to provide things like defense without a more powerful government to constrain them, that positions allows them to become a government.

> And if the court as much as makes one unfair ruling, it will drive away new business from parties who want a neutral third party.

No one wants a neutral third party, everyone wants someone that is biased towards them but which the opposing party can be conned into believing is not.

Neutral is just what you would get, were such a market viable, when both sides happen to have equal success. (Which outside of naive assumptions about perfect information, is unlikely to be normal in practice.)

Re: Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged Maui rebuilds

#68

Post by skybrian »

cheald wrote: post #36
skybrian wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legal rights can be created by passing laws. It’s possible to pass a law giving people a right to payment by the government (for example, a pension). Such payments can be used to buy goods and services that take labor as an input.

That's more correctly called an "entitlement" rather than a "right", IMO.

It looks like an entitlement is one kind of legal right.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights

Re: Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged Maui rebuilds

#69

Post by cam_l »

vlucas wrote: post #19
ryaneager wrote: post #10

It almost as if housing is a human right and not an investment opportunity for the wealthy to exploit.

Nothing that requires the labor of others is a human right. That's not how rights work.

Ownership is not a natural human right, that's not how human rights work.

(I too can make bald, sweeping statements without any justification or thought to reality, based purely on my gut feeling and predisposed ideology).

Re: Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged Maui rebuilds

#70

Post by s1artibartfast »

churchill wrote: post #61
gottorf wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even a libertarian would agree that some small level of taxation is necessary to fund the apparatus of the state that would enforce property rights and contracts, safeguard the border from invasion, and whatnot. One can only dream of a time and place where government is only funded by a strict land-value tax, though...

Lol - if you study libertarianism deeply, you'll find out most of these edge cases you think a centralized government is needed can be provided by a free market. In the Private Production of Defense, Hoppe argues that property owners and businesses can buy covergae from insurance agencies who will then have a vested interest in keeping their houses and communities crime-free. Likewise, in a contract republic (or a ch…

There are different libertarian philosophies. You are describing anarchists.
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