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Israeli Researchers Produce Green Hydrogen with 90% Efficiency

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Re: Israeli Researchers Produce Green Hydrogen with 90% Efficiency

#101

Post by RetroTechie »

mustafa_pasi wrote: post #33
thadjo wrote: post #30

I'm seeing a lot of people here assuming that the purpose of green hydrogen is for fuel cells / automotive transport, but I don't see many people in this space talking about that anymore (except Toyota). Instead there is a lot more interest in using green hydrogen for industrial purposes or as a key building block for cleaner fuels like methanol. Currently green hydrogen is expensive to make and sucks to transport. B…

I agree with this. I think there will still be niche products using liquid fuels. Like for example "explorer" or "offroader" type vehicles that require higher energy densities. And aviation of course. But commuter transportation will be using direct current or batteries. But the two chief uses will be in industrial processes that use hydrogen directly, in chemical processes that use hydrocarbons directly, and in ener…

> I think there will still be niche products using liquid fuels.

One of those niches: boats. Specifically: user-owned recreational ones.

Not because it's hard to build electric propulsion systems for boats. There already exist many types of motors, batteries & control systems to choose from. Not because battery weight / size is a problem (it isn't). Not because of safety issues (gas/diesel have their own).

But because it requires a big upfront investment. Converting to electrical propulsion is (for most boats) expensive. For someone who already owns a gas/diesel powered boat, but not the $$ to convert into all-electric, that's a big hurdle.

Of course new boats will replace old ones over time. But average boat lasts much longer (read: takes much longer to replace) than eg. cars. Average car is what, 6..8y old? Average boat more like 20y+. Electric conversion that's both easy and cheap, is not a thing (yet?).

Professional owners like ferries, commercial shipping or boat rental, will deal with this. Private owners of recreational boats, not so quick.

That means: there will be gas/diesel powered boats around for many years. Having 'green' fuel for those available everywhere, would be quite a boon.

Re: Israeli Researchers Produce Green Hydrogen with 90% Efficiency

#102

Post by jakewins »

slashdev wrote: post #53
pjc50 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> few nuclear power plants, electricity should be ridiculously cheap Nuclear has never managed to be cheap. The really big nuclear buildouts always had a national security subsidy: either for energy security (France), or for nuclear weapons (US, UK, USSR, China, and also France). This is partly why non-weaponizable reactor designs never became popular either. > They obviously don't like that, which is why they keep p…

As much as I’ve been rooting for nuclear, I think the ship has sailed. If newer advances can’t make it cost competitive with renewables plus some storage (I’ll get to that in a minute) then why would you ever deploy it. Renewables are really cheap and getting cheaper, so some combination of overbuild with storage is probably the winning formula. Storage is a little too expensive as lithium ion batteries, but there’s…

Rooftop solar in Australia is now cheaper in some jurisdictions than transmission per kWh. Meaning, if I tried to build a nuke or any other centralized generator and I gave the electricity away for free, rooftop solar would still be cheaper per kWh because consumers don’t need to pay to maintain transmission infrastructure..

Of course, only when the sun is shining. But it’s an incredible Lego block we’ve got to play with in building this new energy system, zero marginal cost generation.

Re: Israeli Researchers Produce Green Hydrogen with 90% Efficiency

#103

Post by _aavaa_ »

mustafa_pasi wrote: post #56
mrpopo wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, increasing energy efficiency is at the heart of many climate solutions. Clean energy is still scarce, and in the places where it isn't, for instance Germany, there is backlash against it. Not to mention that they aren't even close to being 100% renewable-powered (wind+solar 30%), not even close to have 100% EV market penetration (about 2%), not even close to have the theoretical capacity for a grid to pow…

Manufacturing a whole new vehicle with a huge ass battery that is more cost intensive to manufacturing than a comparable ICE, a vehicle that due to contemporary trends has to be a 5-ton lifted SUV, a vehicle that is going to be used by ONE person to commute to work along a fixed predetermined route, a vehicle that is going to be replaced after 3 years because this person have to have the newest four wheels on the lot…

That's a criticism of trends in automobiles (which I agree with) not something inherent to BEVs.

Guess what, if you get a BEV with 1/3-1/4 the battery size, the range is smaller, but for most people it will be fine. And now your vehicle is not lugging around all that excess weight.

And do you really need a massive electric pickup truck? It's absolutely possible, but I bet for most people it's a preference.

Re: Israeli Researchers Produce Green Hydrogen with 90% Efficiency

#104

Post by angiosperm »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #71
angiosperm wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will be cheaper until it isn't. Then, it won't be. Hydrogen electrolysed using zero-marginal-cost power from solar farms producing in excess of demand, on cheapest-conceivable electrolysers, will become cheaper than what depends on extracting, concentrating, and transporting NG.

What you describe still is uneconomical: building out solar farms to exceed demand.

Solar farms are necessarily built to exceed instantaneous demand, because they must meet demand when sunshine is reduced.

Re: Israeli Researchers Produce Green Hydrogen with 90% Efficiency

#105

Post by _hypx »

traverseda wrote: post #96
_hypx wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Biofuels are fundamentally not green. You might as well suggest we use fossil fuels forever.

What do you mean? The fuel itself should be carbon neutral, even if it requires extra energy to create. I don't see any reason you couldn't make carbon neutral bio fuel, although I'd net on syngas instead.

Growing food and converting it to fuel is not carbon neutral. Farming is very resource intensive at the scales needed. In fact, it is literally the same idea as carbon capture, but via biology instead of synthetic. As a result, it is entirely a bad idea.

Re: Israeli Researchers Produce Green Hydrogen with 90% Efficiency

#106

Post by rcarr »

pjc50 wrote: post #49
rcarr wrote: post #38

Obviously hydrogen has it's uses, but a large part of me feels the energy industry is stalling for time. Oil and gas is basically a subscription model, whereas electric cars and heat pumps are buy once, upgrade in x years or when broken model. With enough renewable energy and a few nuclear power plants, electricity should be ridiculously cheap and if they've got the space, the consumer can even generate their own. Th…

> few nuclear power plants, electricity should be ridiculously cheap Nuclear has never managed to be cheap. The really big nuclear buildouts always had a national security subsidy: either for energy security (France), or for nuclear weapons (US, UK, USSR, China, and also France). This is partly why non-weaponizable reactor designs never became popular either. > They obviously don't like that, which is why they keep p…

When I say nuclear, I don’t mean as the primary fuel source, but as a few strategically placed plants to serve as back up until large scale battery storage gets sufficiently commonplace until it is no longer needed. Eventually every house will have its own large battery and solar panels on its roof. In combination with grid battery storage, increased panel efficiencies and huge amounts of solar and wind farms eventually the need for backup nuclear energy plants will be next to zero and would probably only exist as small, mobile units that could be moved to disaster zones. Obviously I’m talking on a massive timescale here, we probably won’t get to this point this century unless someone really does make a room temp superconductor and then we can just pipe energy from the equator to where it’s needed.

Re: Israeli Researchers Produce Green Hydrogen with 90% Efficiency

#107

Post by rcme »

_aavaa_ wrote: post #12

> When it is genuinely green, it is obtained through electrolysis, a process that is only 70% to 80% efficient. That's not bad compared to internal combustion engines (ICEs), but fuel cell detractors use that to bash them anyway. Scientists at Tel Aviv University plan to kill that argument with a method that is over 90% efficient in generating green hydrogen. This is highly disingenuous. The problem isn't just that e…

It actually doesn’t have to do with transmission at all. Rather, when you pay for electrolysis, you’re paying for all the energy inputs. When you burn fossil fuels, you’re not paying for any of the energy inputs (hundreds of millions of years of solar radiation). So it’s not surprising that fossil fuels are cheaper even if they’re less efficient.

Re: Israeli Researchers Produce Green Hydrogen with 90% Efficiency

#108

Post by _aavaa_ »

someplaceguy wrote: post #26
bkor wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Efficiency has a huge impact on the cost/economics, something that you've highlighted. If significant more energy is needed, it'll likely be more expensive. Hydrogen is sometimes only a third as efficient as other solutions. It's pretty logical to assume it'll be > In the early 1900s, gas was less efficient than electricity too I think you mean gasoline instead of just gas. Hydrogen requires huge amounts of energy be…

> Efficiency has a huge impact on the cost/economics It doesn't have nearly as much impact as other factors, such as abundance of the material, how easy/practical it is to work with it (which influences both demand and supply), whether mass infrastructure for it already exists (although this is more relevant in the short-term rather than long-term), etc. These factors impact the economics of an energy source much mor…

But the efficiency of something goes directly into the economics.

If you need need to build out a grid to power your cars, you'll 3x as much energy at the source to get the same amount of energy into the tyres.

Re: Israeli Researchers Produce Green Hydrogen with 90% Efficiency

#109

Post by _aavaa_ »

rcme wrote: post #107
_aavaa_ wrote: post #12

> When it is genuinely green, it is obtained through electrolysis, a process that is only 70% to 80% efficient. That's not bad compared to internal combustion engines (ICEs), but fuel cell detractors use that to bash them anyway. Scientists at Tel Aviv University plan to kill that argument with a method that is over 90% efficient in generating green hydrogen. This is highly disingenuous. The problem isn't just that e…

It actually doesn’t have to do with transmission at all. Rather, when you pay for electrolysis, you’re paying for all the energy inputs. When you burn fossil fuels, you’re not paying for any of the energy inputs (hundreds of millions of years of solar radiation). So it’s not surprising that fossil fuels are cheaper even if they’re less efficient.

Firstly I don't see how that follows. You still need to pay to transport both the oil and the hydrogen from where you make it to where you use it.

Most importantly, you're not (in most places) paying for the pollution of the atmosphere. E.g. Prices on carbon are nowhere near the level of societal harm that putting it into the atmosphere causes.

Re: Israeli Researchers Produce Green Hydrogen with 90% Efficiency

#110

Post by jandrese »

_hypx wrote: post #92
jandrese wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think hydrogen for aviation is probably a dead end. I suspect the long term solution for aviation, at least long haul, is biofuels. Battery tech is edging into the realm where it could be used for short haul flights, but we have quite a ways to go before you'll be able to fly across the Pacific, or even Atlantic, on a single charge with reasonable passenger comfort.

Biofuels are fundamentally not green. You might as well suggest we use fossil fuels forever.

Biofuels today have issues, but there's no fundamental problem preventing them from being green. It's just a side effect of shoehorning them into our existing agriculture systems.

In the future when we have more solar power than we know what to do with during the day it may become economical to run the Sabatier reaction with hydrolyzed seawater and atmospheric CO2 to make methane, which can be burned in a lightly modified aircraft turbine.

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