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Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged Maui rebuilds

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Re: Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged Maui rebuilds

#41

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

throwaway655368 wrote: post #27
rednerrus wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it a human right? How does that work?

Every human has a right to enslave three other humans and force them to build a house. When a house is finished they have to be released though to prevent infringing of their own human rights.

I refuse to believe that you actually believe that's how "rights" work when it comes to rights that require the labor of others to provide. Nobody can actually believe this in good faith.

Children have the right to a K-12 education. Do you consider the entire public school system to purely be slaves?

If I go to an emergency room, I have the right to life-saving treatments even if I can't pay. Are the doctors slaves?

No, of course not. They all get paid. They're all free to quit their jobs at any time.

Re: Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged Maui rebuilds

#42

Post by oceanplexian »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #13
Bostonian wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being the governor of a state should not confer the right to suspend property rights, which is what this is. Owning something means being able to sell it.

It is very common in disaster scenarios to put limits on trade or commerce when an emergency is declared. Emergency powers are broad, both at the state and federal levels. You are free to your opinion of course, the people of Hawaii will decide with their vote if the governor runs again. The governor is doing what they believe to best for their constituents. No solution is perfect. Democracy!

> Emergency powers are broad, both at the state and federal levels.

This is often repeated by the media, but no, emergency powers aren't a magic card you can pull out to ignore the law. Emergency powers don't supersede the Constitution.

The government preventing the sale of a property without any compensation would be very clearly considered a "taking". For example, even in cases of Eminent Domain the government still has to compensate you for the fair value of your property.

Re: Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged Maui rebuilds

#43

Post by johngladtj »

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #41
throwaway655368 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every human has a right to enslave three other humans and force them to build a house. When a house is finished they have to be released though to prevent infringing of their own human rights.

I refuse to believe that you actually believe that's how "rights" work when it comes to rights that require the labor of others to provide. Nobody can actually believe this in good faith. Children have the right to a K-12 education. Do you consider the entire public school system to purely be slaves? If I go to an emergency room, I have the right to life-saving treatments even if I can't pay. Are the doctors slaves?…

The prison-school complex is not the example you think it is Buddy

Re: Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged Maui rebuilds

#44

Post by ryaneager »

rednerrus wrote: post #17
ryaneager wrote: post #10

It almost as if housing is a human right and not an investment opportunity for the wealthy to exploit.

How is it a human right? How does that work?

It doesn’t work in a capitalistic society, as capitalism only benefits, those who own. It’s my belief that we create enough resources in this world for everyone to live a comfortable life but we don’t love one is because a few thousand people hoard all the resources and say we have to keep working.

Re: Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged Maui rebuilds

#45

Post by hn8305823 »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #4
Bostonian wrote: post #2

"Land grabs" is a dishonest term for voluntary land sales.

It’s exploitation of vulnerable disaster victims. A pause on land transfers is warranted.

Remember when the Dow crashed 3000+ points at the beginning of Covid? The Treasury Secretary was asked when the stock markets would be closed down and he said something to the effect of "people need access to their money, we are not going to interfere with that".

The same thing applies here.

Re: Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged Maui rebuilds

#46

Post by [deleted] »

Ekaros wrote: post #9
toomuchtodo wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s exploitation of vulnerable disaster victims. A pause on land transfers is warranted.

It is probably though process. But why not allow sales on valuation that matches last year for example? That should be close enough to fair market value and allow people to start rebuilding with the money.

[deleted]

Re: Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged Maui rebuilds

#47

Post by FireBeyond »

MerelyMortal wrote: post #29
rowanseymour wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"voluntary" is a dishonest term for locals forced to sell and move after a major disaster

As someone who used to live in Hawaii, I'm not going to be buying land there anytime soon, so... "forced to sell", how exactly?

Oh, I'm sure the insurance company will cut them a check tomorrow for the full replacement value of their home, and the day after that it will be fully constructed and ready for move-in, and people won't be paying for hotel stays long after emergency funds run out. I guess they're not "forced to sell" if they have a 12-18 month safety net sufficient to cover alternative accommodation with very little demand.

No, nobody put a gun to their head. But this is a little black and white, no?

Re: Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged Maui rebuilds

#48

Post by hn8305823 »

Ekaros wrote: post #9
toomuchtodo wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s exploitation of vulnerable disaster victims. A pause on land transfers is warranted.

It is probably though process. But why not allow sales on valuation that matches last year for example? That should be close enough to fair market value and allow people to start rebuilding with the money.

> why not allow sales on valuation that matches last year for example? That should be close enough to fair market value

Fair market value is what a willing buyer and seller agree on. Nothing more, nothing less. Who are you, me, or any other disinterested party to decide if, when, and for how much someone sells their land for?

Re: Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged Maui rebuilds

#49

Post by gottorf »

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #41
throwaway655368 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every human has a right to enslave three other humans and force them to build a house. When a house is finished they have to be released though to prevent infringing of their own human rights.

I refuse to believe that you actually believe that's how "rights" work when it comes to rights that require the labor of others to provide. Nobody can actually believe this in good faith. Children have the right to a K-12 education. Do you consider the entire public school system to purely be slaves? If I go to an emergency room, I have the right to life-saving treatments even if I can't pay. Are the doctors slaves?…

> Nobody can actually believe this in good faith.

Let's steelman GP's argument, which obviously was hyperbolic. But it's true that positive rights (or entitlements) are always paid for by the labor of others. K-12 public schools are generally majority paid for by local property taxes, and we all know what happens if you stop paying property taxes.

The average American worker already pays close to quarter of their earnings in labor-related taxes[0], which doesn't include property tax, sales tax, or any other kind of tax that people pay. I think we can safely estimate that at least a third of everyone's labor is already spoken for by various layers of government; this lines up with the pre-Covid US government expenditure as a percent of GDP, which was around ~35%[1].

Of course, all of that spending was decided by a democratically-elected government and people more or less buy in to the idea that it is for the common good of the country. But as that spending increases monotonically over time, and as people share fewer things in common with each other (I mean, try putting a 22-year-old college graduate working at a nonprofit in Brooklyn and a 22-year-old journeyman electrician in Iowa City in the same room), it gets harder and harder to believe in that common good, and you start to wonder why a third of your productive output goes to things you had no direct choice over, and why the people who make those decisions get richer and richer. Half of the top ten richest counties in the country[2] are suburbs of Washington, D.C. Does that make you feel good?

And guess what happens if you try to keep more of your productive output? You go to jail. That's what people mean by "slavery". Or at any rate, this is my attempt at steelmanning that argument.

[0]: https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-united-stat...

[1]: https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/exp@FPP/USA

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-income_countie...

Re: Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged Maui rebuilds

#50

Post by gottorf »

ryaneager wrote: post #44
rednerrus wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it a human right? How does that work?

It doesn’t work in a capitalistic society, as capitalism only benefits, those who own. It’s my belief that we create enough resources in this world for everyone to live a comfortable life but we don’t love one is because a few thousand people hoard all the resources and say we have to keep working.

> as capitalism only benefits, those who own

A rising tide lifts all boats, and that is what has borne out by historical fact for capitalism. The easiest way to see how it benefits everyone, even the poorest, is to look at the median person's living standards in places that don't have "capitalism" (which in this context is shorthand for rule of law, strong private property rights, and a market economy).

> a few thousand people hoard all the resources

The mega-ultra-rich (the top richest few thousand people in the world, like you said) aren't piling vaults with gold, Scrooge McDuck style. Their wealth is the productive assets they own, almost always companies that generate value for consumers.

Besides, the net worth of all American billionaires combined is about four and a half trillion dollars[0]. Even if you could magically confiscate all of that "money" at that same valuation (which you can't, since you cannot liquidate a stock and expect it to fetch the same price) and redistribute it to everyone, that's a whopping bonus of $13.5k to every man, woman, and child in this country. Do you seriously imagine everyone can stop working and live happy lives with that money?

Put another way, $4.5T is not even five years of Social Security. What happens next?

> we have to keep working

I'm not really sure what you think the alternative is. As pg said, wealth is what people want[1], whether that's an AC unit to keep yourself cool if you live in a hot place, or heating oil to keep yourself warm if you live in a cool place, or a flight to Paris for a vacation, or filet mignon, or rice and beans, or a can of Coke, or a glass of wine. Every single one of those things takes labor to produce. If all rich people ceased to exist, it will not change the fact that you cannot wave a magic wand and put food on your table.

[0]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1291685/us-combined-valu...

[1]: http://www.paulgraham.com/wealth.html

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