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New York Times considers legal action against OpenAI as copyright tensions swirl

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Re: New York Times considers legal action against OpenAI as copyright tensions swirl

#231

IANAL, but copyright protections are pretty much tied to content and format and not to the idea itself, with the intent of preventing (or putting a price on) the copying of original works. The Times will have a very hard time proving that their content is being re-marketed by OpenAI. Having a competing product based on your ideas. Compare: "Steve Jobs [was] a tyrant": https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/07/technology/ste…

Can't wait for the supreme Court ruling that says AI is just using data, and data is free.

MP3 are just data too

Re: New York Times considers legal action against OpenAI as copyright tensions swirl

#232

IANAL, but copyright protections are pretty much tied to content and format and not to the idea itself, with the intent of preventing (or putting a price on) the copying of original works. The Times will have a very hard time proving that their content is being re-marketed by OpenAI. Having a competing product based on your ideas. Compare: "Steve Jobs [was] a tyrant": https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/07/technology/ste…

Copyright protection goes way beyond "verbatim copy". For example, fictional characters enjoy copyright protection:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_protection_for_ficti...

Re: New York Times considers legal action against OpenAI as copyright tensions swirl

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to agree with you, but, one could argue “statistical collection of words” is a form of compression? For example, you can’t write a kids version of a novel and sell that without dealing with copyright.

The part openai will have to argue is that it's not mererly compression but an irreversible transformation. Which is hard, best hope they have is trying to put the burden of proof on the nytimes to show you can make the model regurgitate their articles (with some nudging). If they manage that then nytimes is going to have a lot of trouble showing the model actually breaches their copyright, because just the informati…

Any form of lossy compression is an irreversible transformation. We do it all the time for video, audio and images (you can't recover the original data) and they are still copyrighted

Re: New York Times considers legal action against OpenAI as copyright tensions swirl

#234

IANAL, but copyright protections are pretty much tied to content and format and not to the idea itself, with the intent of preventing (or putting a price on) the copying of original works. The Times will have a very hard time proving that their content is being re-marketed by OpenAI. Having a competing product based on your ideas. Compare: "Steve Jobs [was] a tyrant": https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/07/technology/ste…

IANAL is the dumbest abbreviation the internet has come up with. I believe I first observed these things on the Groklaw discussion threads discussing the SCO legal battle against the world. Not-A-Lawyer NAL instead of the full IANAL. I just had to say it.

IANAL is just "wacky" and "sexual" reddit tier humour, nothing more. It's boring any annoying.

Re: New York Times considers legal action against OpenAI as copyright tensions swirl

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Am I breaking the law? The intent of [US] copyright law is to promote new works of art (which can be derivative). So copyright did exactly what it is supposed to do in your analogy. Plus, you're human, which gives you special rights that software doesn't posses.

But. I am allowed to at least read the copywritten material, from which it goes into my brain to become mixed up with everything else, and spit out to produce something 'new' or 'newish'. Some of these lawsuits are trying to prevent the AI from even 'reading' the material. It can't even be used as an influence. Wouldn't it be better to treat the products of the AI with the same laws as humans. If the new 'product' is…

> I am allowed to at least read the copywritten material, from which it goes into my brain to become mixed up with everything else, and spit out to produce something 'new' or 'newish'.

Yes, because you're A) human and B) that is how copyright is supposed to work.

AI doesn't enjoy the rights of people. AI is a "talking book" and copying, storing, then repeating someone else's work from your talking book would (likely) run afoul of [US] copyright law.

Re: New York Times considers legal action against OpenAI as copyright tensions swirl

#236
While (in general) I agree with arguments against “copywriting hell”, in particular this case it is not about copywriting itself, but about the consequences of GenAI to entire industry.

Journalists exist not without a reason, yes they work with facts and very often — open facts, but they still assemble those facts in certain way to construct a narrative, connect dots and tell us some story (not counting cases when journalist works with their sources and produce a unique inside information). Then OpenAI comes, says “thank you very much” and assemble all of journalists work into one Uber Knowledgeable Journalist who can answer all of your questions.

So far so good, we create a public good service, and copywriters are in shambles.

Until you start making money on it.

That’s where the problem.

If OpenAI would be a non profit organization like Wiki Foundation, who just wants to make internet as better place — not much arguments you can find to support NYT lawsuit. But monetization changes everything.

Basically NYT is not worried about re using its text as itself, it is worried that no one will want to visit NYT no more and will pay Microsoft/Google and get all answers from them.

Let’s put an example. There were a famous story when FT journalist discover a massive fraud in Wirecard accounting and essentially lead to a death of this organization. That articles were a result of multi-year reporting work when journalist piece by piece and step by step collect facts, meet people, and eventually spot the gap. Now, in age of Bard/Bing/ChatGPT, you don’t need to read original article to know all of this. You can ask search engine or Chatbot and get essential re phrasing of an original reporter work. You don’t need no more to go to FT, pay them for paywall, watch their ads, etc. Effectively FT make a huge investment into their people to allow them spend 2 years on this issue and report it and now have a 0 leads to their website because all of them are eaten by Google and Microsoft who will sell you their ads and retain you in their monetized products.

Imagine that you built a for-profit paid library for some task. You make a code available through paywall and ask people to pay you to get to it and solve their problems. Then Microsoft comes, sneak beyond paywall, scrap your code and publish it recompiled and slightly optimized version in open access, so no one longer ever need to go on your website but ask Microsoft to show them your code.

Would you be happy?

All of this cases for me make this case not such easy and straightforward as it seems to be “bad copywriters against progress of humanity”.

At the end of the day, if NYT/FT/New Yorker and others will stop publishing their work and fire all journalists, will ChatGPT tell us same depth level stories as we read there?

Re: New York Times considers legal action against OpenAI as copyright tensions swirl

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if those industries are unviable without copyright protection, they could go away entirely. These creative industries include all of software development, music, TV, movies, books, media, art, etc. You do technically solve the problem of copyright by shutting all those down, but I'm not sure it's a solution anybody will vote for. If you can come up with a serious alternative though, which can sustain those creative…

I don't think that no one would create new software/music/books/movies/art/etc. without copyright. Humans have done so for millenia before, they still did so in absence of copyright protections. I don't see how this is not a serious alternative - the only major losers would be the middlemen, not the artists themselves.

> Humans have done so for millenia before

This is categorically false for both software and movies.

For other media, this ignores the effect of zero-effort copying.

Re: New York Times considers legal action against OpenAI as copyright tensions swirl

#238

IANAL, but copyright protections are pretty much tied to content and format and not to the idea itself, with the intent of preventing (or putting a price on) the copying of original works. The Times will have a very hard time proving that their content is being re-marketed by OpenAI. Having a competing product based on your ideas. Compare: "Steve Jobs [was] a tyrant": https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/07/technology/ste…

>The general way LLMs work do not preserve content in it's original form: the ideas they contain are extracted and clustered statistically - as a Is the way LLM work relevant? I can make a shitty script that has as input Microsoft proprietary code and as output something identical in purpose but the text is completely different, I would rename names with synonyms, swap some things around etc. I am not against AIs, my…

> my opinion is that if your AI uses GPL code the output should be GPL

If I use Inkscape is the output of my drawing subject to the same terms as Inkscape?

If I use a Photoshop filter is the output subject to Photoshop's EULA and/or the copyright of the photo I started with?

Re: New York Times considers legal action against OpenAI as copyright tensions swirl

#239
post #3

What’s going to be the name used for the laws that attempt to tackle machine paraphrasing?

Copyright law. Which already covers both mechanical duplication, including mechnaical duplication with automatic alterations to evade detection while continuing to reproduce protect elements if the original.

> including mechnaical duplication with automatic alterations to evade detection while continuing to reproduce protect elements if the original.

That's super interesting and is news to me. Thanks for sharing. Would you mind linking to relevant statutes or court decisions?

(This isn't a "citation needed" post -- I believe you, and I'm genuinely curious to read more, but can't find anything!)

Re: New York Times considers legal action against OpenAI as copyright tensions swirl

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if those industries are unviable without copyright protection, they could go away entirely. These creative industries include all of software development, music, TV, movies, books, media, art, etc. You do technically solve the problem of copyright by shutting all those down, but I'm not sure it's a solution anybody will vote for. If you can come up with a serious alternative though, which can sustain those creative…

I don't think that no one would create new software/music/books/movies/art/etc. without copyright. Humans have done so for millenia before, they still did so in absence of copyright protections. I don't see how this is not a serious alternative - the only major losers would be the middlemen, not the artists themselves.

Eh, I could definitely see the artists losing.

The most obvious scenario that comes to mind for me is, imagine an independent artists launching their (book/film/album/etc) and the same day someone with more resources and experience takes the work and markets it better than the OG author ever could on their own.

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