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Ruby and the Opposite of Momentum

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Re: Ruby and the Opposite of Momentum

#21
post #16
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of the above! Parrot is never going to be viable -- 'flexible' platforms are only so when there are piles of diverse users. Specifications do not make reality. Ruby has a huge advantage over Perl in that there are a number of groups successfully working to reimplement, specify, and reform it. There are visible lights at the end of the tunnel, they're just for specific communities -- JRuby and MacRuby. Hopefully R…

All of the above = a huge bag of hurt that presents some damn near insurmountable problems (leadership, on its own, is a huge issue). To be honest, I don't know how one would get past those things without first deciding, with a clear conscience, to hijack Ruby from Matz. I know that sounds malicious, but even Dave Thomas is calling for a fork of the language. Seems to me that forking is not quite what we need, as it…

Exactly, Python wins.

There's a massive gulf between Matz and Guido as far as decision making, even when you only look at the Languages and not their imperfect Implementations. Just for example, look at how executable objects work:

* Guido made a hard+pragmatic decision that there are only Functions. Methods and Class Methods are functions that take their binding as an explicit argument (which is inferenced when called with the . selector). Lambdas cannot contain statements and simply yield to a Function. Functions are recursively defined as objects with a __call__ method.

* Matz tried to make everything hugs all around and the result is that there's no straightforward Function type -- there are Methods, Blocks, Procs, Lambdas (1); which yield into one another bafflingly and retain scope in untoward ways. This makes some simple use cases very straightforward, but at a terrible cost.

(1). Are there more? The lack of certainty with which I can answer this question is alarming.

Re: Ruby and the Opposite of Momentum

#23

Not to rub salt into this whole pile of hurt in the Ruby world lately, but I'm shortly going to be promoting (on Ruby Inside) some rather damning news from the Windows camp in relation to how many significant Ruby libraries are either ignoring Windows or not being transparent enough to make it easy to patch the issues. (I'm not a Windows user, but if Windows is treated like a third world country by Ruby users, it's g…

" Not to rub salt into this whole pile of hurt in the Ruby world lately ..."

Any reason not to think that the vast majority of Rubyists really don't give a crap about this drama and are quietly, and happily, just going about hacking Ruby?

In my little corner of the Rubyverse people seem quite happy, loving Ruby, and glad to be making a living from it. Those I know not paid to do Ruby look forward to their free time when they can work on their cool Ruby side projects.

I'm sure there are unhappy Ruby hackers, but I'm deeply skeptical that anyone is in a position to be making broad claims about The Ruby Community.

Re: Ruby and the Opposite of Momentum

#24

I think the time is ripe for a server/desktop side Javascript language to come along. Rhino? It's my humble belief that Javascript will be the most popular language within 10 years.

I would like you to be correct but I don't think you are.

Javascript with minor syntactic sugar for making DSLs, and with the stupidity around scoping ironed out, that might win out, though.

Re: Ruby and the Opposite of Momentum

#25
post #20

ruby is slowly but surely showing itself to be the next PHP - popular for all the wrong reasons, terrible implementation and a foolish philosophy

What is PHP's philosophy? Getting stuff easily online? I don't find that foolish. On Ruby, is programmer happiness a foolish idea?

programmer happiness is a great idea, it's just that Ruby fails it completely. do memory leaks make you happy?

the biggest thing that ruby and php have in common is that they're both hamstrung by their terrible interpreters.

the second biggest thing is that the languages were conceived and championed by amateurs whose proposed philosophies are just fine (though vague), but the execution is horrendous.

example regarding php's philosophy: about all php has going for it is how easy it is to get started. that's it, and it hasn't even done that right. php has a rich history of horrible decisions made in the name of being easy - register globals, magic quotes.

two failed implementations of a vague philosophy - ease of use & programmer happiness. brought to you by php and ruby.

Re: Ruby and the Opposite of Momentum

#26
post #17

ruby is slowly but surely showing itself to be the next PHP - popular for all the wrong reasons, terrible implementation and a foolish philosophy

Please, elaborate. What wrong reasons is Ruby popular for? What is the foolish philosophy around Ruby?

I don't know, but if the secret to PHP's enormous success is its foolish philosophy then the Ruby community needs more fools.

There is one thing to observe here: Ruby will not become as widespread or as popular as Perl, PHP, or Java without also becoming as unfashionable as Perl, PHP, and Java. When an invention becomes successful and established, eventually everyone comes to take its good parts for granted, while its flaws become famous and are an eternal topic of discussion.

Re: Ruby and the Opposite of Momentum

#27
post #17

ruby is slowly but surely showing itself to be the next PHP - popular for all the wrong reasons, terrible implementation and a foolish philosophy

Please, elaborate. What wrong reasons is Ruby popular for? What is the foolish philosophy around Ruby?

you're right, I shouldn't have said foolish. more like vague. it's the implementations that have been foolish.

Re: Ruby and the Opposite of Momentum

#28
post #19

It would be nice to see some progress made on the interpreter but I think it's to Ruby's credit that the language design hasn't changed that much in the last several years. A lot of the activity on the Python side has been fixing things that weren't well thought through in the first place.

You don't seem to understand that "language design hasn't changed" tends to preclude "progress made on the interpreter".

Python's warts have been fixed and will continue to be fixed. I cant really say the same for Ruby, especially for MRI.

Re: Ruby and the Opposite of Momentum

#29

I don't think JRuby gets enough credit. He pretty much dismisses it because it uses a lot of memory and starts too slow for simple scripting. The JRuby team have done some tricks to speed up startup time, seems to respond almost as fast as MRI to me now. Haven't paid attention to memory though, but if you are launching a script big enough that memory is a factor I don't think the JVM is going to matter. With invoke d…

Seems like the good and crappy things about Ruby and Java, respectively, complement each other well. Ruby is a high productivity language, Java not so much. The JVM is a very well engineered run time engine, Ruby's MRI not so much. Unicode, threading, fast, reliable, portable, well understood and supported. Pluses for Java, minuses for Ruby. So in principle it seems JRuby could have the best of both worlds. But for n…

You're absolutely right about Ruby & Java being a great Odd Couple

What I find interesting is that most of the JRuby users are first and foremost Rubyists. The JVM users seem to gravitate more to Scala, Groovy, Clojure, Rhino, etc.

Re: Ruby and the Opposite of Momentum

#30

Not to rub salt into this whole pile of hurt in the Ruby world lately, but I'm shortly going to be promoting (on Ruby Inside) some rather damning news from the Windows camp in relation to how many significant Ruby libraries are either ignoring Windows or not being transparent enough to make it easy to patch the issues. (I'm not a Windows user, but if Windows is treated like a third world country by Ruby users, it's g…

" Not to rub salt into this whole pile of hurt in the Ruby world lately ..." Any reason not to think that the vast majority of Rubyists really don't give a crap about this drama and are quietly, and happily, just going about hacking Ruby? In my little corner of the Rubyverse people seem quite happy, loving Ruby, and glad to be making a living from it. Those I know not paid to do Ruby look forward to their free time w…

Your response is to the wrong post. There were no broad claims about the Ruby community in general in mine. But if it's just passive aggression, change the record!
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