Naomi Wu and the Silence That Speaks Volumes • Hacker News Board

Re: Naomi Wu and the Silence That Speaks Volumes

#121

Post by stale2002 » Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 3:01 AM UTC

Everly_Pitts wrote: post #110

stale2002 wrote: post #100

Oh the irony of this happening to someone like Naomi Wu, given past things that she posts about. People should remember this any time they see an influencer living in China who is highly critical of the west and yet suspiciously silent on issues within China. The answer is, of course, that as soon as one of these influencers cross the line they or their family get threatened with jail time. It makes it difficult to a…

“Suspiciously silent”: https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/166043727684397056... https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/166044210589716480... https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/149992892541732864... https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/166496024156854682... https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/166518745181888512... https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/151996155943009075...

Ironically you have proved my point with the very tweets that you posted.

It's not illegal for people in China to get mad when they see a person randomly assaulted on the street, or mad about things in general that are happening in China.

That's not the kind of stuff that will get you silenced.

Instead, it is other topics. For example, if the perpetrator in those tweets had happened to be a high up/protected government official, in the national party, well then I assure you that you would have seen some suspicious silence.

Censorship in China is much more complicated than the false position that has been ascribed to me here, which would be "nobody in China can be upset about anything".

Re: Naomi Wu and the Silence That Speaks Volumes

#122

Post by 2muchcoffeeman » Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 3:02 AM UTC

consumer451 wrote: post #7

anigbrowl wrote: post #2

I'm appalled that I'm only finding out about this now.

Am I being paranoid in thinking that Musk’s exposure in China & disdain for the LGBTQ community could lead him to lower the reach of tweets related to this issue?

Her account is fine. She has to stop tweeting. You guys need to get a grip. As if the Chinese government needs Musks help.

Re: Naomi Wu and the Silence That Speaks Volumes

#123

Post by er4hn » Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 3:04 AM UTC

NathanKP wrote: post #13

I've been following Naomi Wu on Twitter for years, but I didn't notice that July tweet until reading this post. The reason: I'm barely on Twitter/X anymore because its so bad now, and even when I'm on Twitter/X I don't see stuff I wanted to see because their algorithm is trash now and just likes to highlight conspiracy theories and the latest cringe content from Elon Musk Anyway, I'm super sad to see Naomi Wu so depl…

I agree, this is tragic. I always enjoyed her spicy takes on the west, especially her pride in China. They were fierce, but they weren't mindlessly nationalist. She'd take the time to explain how and why people in China felt and she had an articulate pride in her country. Always meant a lot to be able to learn someone elses' viewpoint.

Re: Naomi Wu and the Silence That Speaks Volumes

#124

Post by jakelazaroff » Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 3:06 AM UTC

Everly_Pitts wrote: post #110

stale2002 wrote: post #100

Oh the irony of this happening to someone like Naomi Wu, given past things that she posts about. People should remember this any time they see an influencer living in China who is highly critical of the west and yet suspiciously silent on issues within China. The answer is, of course, that as soon as one of these influencers cross the line they or their family get threatened with jail time. It makes it difficult to a…

“Suspiciously silent”: https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/166043727684397056... https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/166044210589716480... https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/149992892541732864... https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/166496024156854682... https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/166518745181888512... https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/151996155943009075...

Yeah it’s such a weird critique from GP, who elsewhere acknowledge that she had “credibility” for a “nuanced” perspective. The reason people thought that is that she was actually often vocally critical of China as well!

Re: Naomi Wu and the Silence That Speaks Volumes

#125

Post by xbar » Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 3:10 AM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #116

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people are out there to consume rather mundane material on pop culture, whatever dance is popular on TikTok, or perhaps someone who is hacking hardware in a bikini. These are pretty entertaining subjects that don't intersect with politics very well, and probably don't need to. And ya, any content that we consume from China is going to be the variety that doesn't touch politics due to selection bias (the pro Chin…

On the other hand, consider that if you’re in the US your own information most likely comes from sources that are antagonistic to China? Why are you so sure that other people are just mindlessly consuming while you’re getting the real truth ?

This is healthy thinking. China might not be a place where there is any censorship, nor goons rounding up Uyghers, nor restrictions on travel, nor foreign-country-located police stations hounding ex-pats to return home under threat to their families.

It could all be made up and China could be a free-thinking, free-speech paradise where an insufficient number of western visitors have realized that everyone is free to talk about fair elections and Winnie-the-Pooh and a Green Party winning control of the Chinese Parliament.

That all sounds quite plausible. We should go and see.

Re: Naomi Wu and the Silence That Speaks Volumes

#126

Post by seanmcdirmid » Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 3:14 AM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #116

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people are out there to consume rather mundane material on pop culture, whatever dance is popular on TikTok, or perhaps someone who is hacking hardware in a bikini. These are pretty entertaining subjects that don't intersect with politics very well, and probably don't need to. And ya, any content that we consume from China is going to be the variety that doesn't touch politics due to selection bias (the pro Chin…

On the other hand, consider that if you’re in the US your own information most likely comes from sources that are antagonistic to China? Why are you so sure that other people are just mindlessly consuming while you’re getting the real truth ?

> On the other hand, consider that if you’re in the US your own information most likely comes from sources that are antagonistic to China? Why are you so sure that other people are just mindlessly consuming while you’re getting the real truth?

Having lived in China for 9 years, I'm pretty familiar with the US and Chinese media. They can both be biased in the way that media is biased, but one is actually not controlled by a single party while the other most definitely is (if you aren't sure, check out the differences between CNN and FoxNews).

China prefers the narrative that the rest of the world is antagonistic against it and out to get it. In reality, it is just the CCP that is really unpopular, and its popularity wanes and ebs with however authoritarian it happens to be at the time. With an official approval rating of 140%, they are incredibly popular in China, at least.

Re: Naomi Wu and the Silence That Speaks Volumes

#127

Post by deadfoxygrandpa » Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 3:40 AM UTC

dralley wrote: post #97

deadfoxygrandpa wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no it's not. most of those people just didn't like china's covid response. things in 2023 are almost back to what they were in 2019 (in regards to western expat life)

I don't think you can give an honest reading of those threads and come away with the conclusion that it's just about COVID. Nearly every comment mentioned reasons other than just COVID. And even the ones that were about COVID weren't really about COVID, they were about the consequences of the totalitarian response laying bare the lack of social contact and waking them up to what was possible. COVID was the trigger bu…

sorry i didnt read those threads. i am a western expat in china and have been for 10+ years, and i'm talking about the people i know and have seen and summarizing discussions with them. many people i know have left since 2020 and this is why

Re: Naomi Wu and the Silence That Speaks Volumes

#128

Post by cwkoss » Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 3:54 AM UTC

Animats wrote: post #104

People are assuming this is about gender, but it may well be about COVID. Wu refused to go along with China's huge policy shift, from trying hard to contain COVID to giving up. She still takes precautions and has been plugging for UV sterilizers and HEPA filters. The government of China has been hassling people who still want to control COVID spread. It's like "return to office" enforced by the cops. She had a previo…

I ordered the Nukit CO2 Controller, and it just arrived today! Super excited to use it to automatically refresh air in my basement office :-).

Naomi's tweets taught me that CO2 is a pretty good proxy for human contamination of air, so turning on a fan when CO2 is high is a pretty good mechanism for refreshing air that could contain covid microparticles. Also learned about UVC from her - she's a fantastic educator and I really hope she's OK.

Gonna play with it for a few weeks then might order a second to switch a filter in the living room to reduce the risk from having guests in our home.

Re: Naomi Wu and the Silence That Speaks Volumes

#129

Post by tbrownaw » Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 3:57 AM UTC

opportune wrote: post #118

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #21

It's depressing how many Americans and Europeans seem utterly allergic to any kind of nuanced discussion or deeper understanding of China. I think the same applies to the former USSR. I'm not sure why this is.

The problem is that the pro-China position almost always comes either from an outsider (who isn’t really credible) or an insider (who is scared of giving even meek criticism or caveated opinions). There are not really insiders willing to offer those nuanced opinions. Instead it’s up to the rest of the world to figure out what’s true and what’s not, what’s omitted, how to reconcile the two differing opinions, but with…

> almost always comes either from an outsider (...) or an insider (...)

Are there examples of people who are neither or both?

Re: Naomi Wu and the Silence That Speaks Volumes

#130

Post by mcpackieh » Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 4:06 AM UTC

jrflowers wrote: post #73

mcpackieh wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paleface is citing her as an example of such a western journalist...

This makes sense. “South Korean journalist” is a very clear way of saying “western journalist” also I’m sure “anti white racist” isn’t any sort of culture war word salad.

A South Korean working for an American media organization, specifically called out as western, is a western journalist as I see it. The term "Western" is imprecise and should usually be avoided for this reason, but South Korea itself is often ranked among the Western nations in the economic and geopolitical alignment senses of the term. And it's fair to say that any journalist working for an American media organization is a western journalist, in any sense of the term. Mentioning that somebody is from South Korea does not constitute a refutation of that person being a western journalist, nor do I believe that was the intention.

In any case, the rest of palefaces's comment plainly criticizes Sarah Jeong for doing the thing quoted: "since her sexuality was outed by a Western journalist" by sarcastically suggesting that Sarah Jeong should feel satisfied. Sarcasm is problematic, particularly in text, but I think in this case the sarcasm is clear. paleface's comment provides details which substantiate the claims, they aren't refuting it.

Incidentally, I think your comment employs sarcasm too. But just to be safe, "This makes sense" is you being sarcastic, right? You think this actually doesn't make sense?

> I’m sure “anti white racist” isn’t any sort of culture war word salad.

I am virtually certain that claim refers to this [quoted from wikipedia]:

> "In August 2018, Jeong was hired by The New York Times to join its editorial board as lead writer on technology.[18][19] The hiring sparked a strongly negative reaction in conservative media, which highlighted derogatory tweets about white people that Jeong had posted mostly in 2013 and 2014.[20][21][22] Critics characterized her tweets as being racist; Jeong released an apology,[23][24] saying that the tweets were meant to satirize online harassment toward her as a woman of color.[20][25]"

Whether or not you find the satire excuse credible, this incident is plainly the basis for the accusation of Sarah Jeong being racist. It may not be a perspective you agree with, I haven't bothered to look up the tweets and their context so I don't have an opinion one way or the other concerning Sarah Jeong actually being a racist or merely satirizing racism. But regardless of whether you agree with the claim it's not 'word salad' e.g. the incoherent speech of a schizophrenic. She would not have said her statements were satire of racism unless her statements could be reasonably construed as resembling racism. Satire of a thing will inherently resemble the thing, so teasing out the difference will be an exercise in subjective judgement. Tacitly accusing somebody of mental illness because you disagree with their subjective interpretation of ostensible satire is inappropriate.