Naomi Wu and the Silence That Speaks Volumes • Hacker News Board

Re: Naomi Wu and the Silence That Speaks Volumes

#91

Post by rhaway84773 » Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:32 AM UTC

yardie wrote: post #19

My interpretation is since her sexuality was outed by a Western journalist she has had an antagonistic relationship with them. I've replied and responded to some of her Tweets and she definitely has her own identity that doesn't line up with what Western users think. I think they wanted a freedom fighter based in China to criticize the CCP and she was not taking the bait. What I had not anticipated was her needing th…

> I think they wanted a freedom fighter based in China to criticize the CCP and she was not taking the bait.

If that was the case wouldn’t the CCP silencing her generate a ton of Western media attention?

Who needs a freedom fighter to warn about what the CCP can do when you can actually show the CCP doing it.

Re: Naomi Wu and the Silence That Speaks Volumes

#92

Post by MichaelZuo » Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:39 AM UTC

ksherlock wrote: post #61

univerio wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to resolve against 1.1.1.1 but not 8.8.8.8. $ dig www.hackingbutlegal.com @1.1.1.1 ... www.hackingbutlegal.com. 1730 IN CNAME target.substack-custom-domains.com. ...

It's working now (8.8.8.8) but definitely wasn't earlier. The substack subscribe popover says it was launched 5 hours ago (which seems odd since hn has links from 36 days ago and whois says it was registered 2 years ago) but maybe that's got something to do with it. https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=hackingbutlegal.com

Maybe a substack bug? Otherwise that is pretty shady since HN link records are reliable.

Re: Naomi Wu and the Silence That Speaks Volumes

#93

Post by deadfoxygrandpa » Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:41 AM UTC

dralley wrote: post #80

tootie wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of opinions coming from first-hand perspective is, if anything, more biased. People get inured to the life they live in and don't have perspective. A lot of people I know who live comfortably in the US that are from places like China or the Soviet Union are still pretty biased in favor of their nationalist propaganda. Not all of them, but some.

On the other hand, there are also a lot of Western expats who were very happy living in China for several years, but are leaving or have left China in the past 2-3 years due to the political changes taking place. China is a much more totalitarian nation today than it was 5 or 10 years ago. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35221742 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30966378 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=…

no it's not. most of those people just didn't like china's covid response. things in 2023 are almost back to what they were in 2019 (in regards to western expat life)

Re: Naomi Wu and the Silence That Speaks Volumes

#94

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:49 AM UTC

yardie wrote: post #19

My interpretation is since her sexuality was outed by a Western journalist she has had an antagonistic relationship with them. I've replied and responded to some of her Tweets and she definitely has her own identity that doesn't line up with what Western users think. I think they wanted a freedom fighter based in China to criticize the CCP and she was not taking the bait. What I had not anticipated was her needing th…

[deleted]

Re: Naomi Wu and the Silence That Speaks Volumes

#95

Post by mcpackieh » Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:53 AM UTC

krapp wrote: post #82

mcpackieh wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I can find it again there's a really great video explaining how, to have free speech, you must restrict some speech. It's nonsense. Constitutional governments with checks and balances can and do hold up to criticisms against them, even speech advocating against free speech. The paradox doesn't exist because the premise of the paradox, that tolerance of the intolerant inevitably results in the victory of the into…

>The paradox doesn't exist because the premise of the paradox, that tolerance of the intolerant inevitably results in the victory of the intolerant, isn't true. The paradox doesn't apply to actors operating in good faith who simply disagree, but those whose intolerance extends to authoritarianism and violence in oppressing the free speech of their opponents, such as the Nazi regime that insipired it, and its truth se…

In America it is legal to advocate for Nazism. This is legal and simultaneously a non-threat because our system of checks and balances prevents them from overthrowing the government. They are not denied their first amendment rights, and yet they're abject losers. The US government is simultaneously tolerant of them and not threatened by them.

The supposed paradox of intolerance says that silencing people who would silence you is the only way to prevent yourself from being silenced, but this is demonstrably not true.

Re: Naomi Wu and the Silence That Speaks Volumes

#96

Post by tootie » Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:54 AM UTC

dralley wrote: post #80

tootie wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of opinions coming from first-hand perspective is, if anything, more biased. People get inured to the life they live in and don't have perspective. A lot of people I know who live comfortably in the US that are from places like China or the Soviet Union are still pretty biased in favor of their nationalist propaganda. Not all of them, but some.

On the other hand, there are also a lot of Western expats who were very happy living in China for several years, but are leaving or have left China in the past 2-3 years due to the political changes taking place. China is a much more totalitarian nation today than it was 5 or 10 years ago. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35221742 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30966378 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=…

China has always been China. Tibet, Cultural Revolution, Tiananmen, Xinjiang. A lot of expats thought they could bury their head in the sand because they had a chance to make money. Same way George HW Bush did.

Re: Naomi Wu and the Silence That Speaks Volumes

#97

Post by dralley » Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:56 AM UTC

deadfoxygrandpa wrote: post #93

dralley wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, there are also a lot of Western expats who were very happy living in China for several years, but are leaving or have left China in the past 2-3 years due to the political changes taking place. China is a much more totalitarian nation today than it was 5 or 10 years ago. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35221742 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30966378 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=…

no it's not. most of those people just didn't like china's covid response. things in 2023 are almost back to what they were in 2019 (in regards to western expat life)

I don't think you can give an honest reading of those threads and come away with the conclusion that it's just about COVID. Nearly every comment mentioned reasons other than just COVID.

And even the ones that were about COVID weren't really about COVID, they were about the consequences of the totalitarian response laying bare the lack of social contact and waking them up to what was possible. COVID was the trigger but it could have been anything and they know it now, essentially.

Re: Naomi Wu and the Silence That Speaks Volumes

#98

Post by NelsonMinar » Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:58 AM UTC

See also Peng Shuai 彭帅, a Chinese pro tennis player who disappeared last year after accusing a fairly high ranking politician of sexual assault. Plenty of differences from Naomi Wu's case, to be sure. But some similarities. Particularly in response. For awhile various world sports organizations and players were trying to highlight her predicament but that's mostly dissipated without having much impact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peng_Shuai

https://www.si.com/tennis/2023/03/29/peng-shuai-wta-principl...

Re: Naomi Wu and the Silence That Speaks Volumes

#99

Post by dsr_ » Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 2:02 AM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #48

flangola7 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I can find it again there's a really great video explaining how, to have free speech, you must restrict some speech. Because bad actors use speech and claims om they are "defending free speech!" in bad faith as a weapon to further their ends, and once they're in a position of power will shameless drop the pretenses and restrict any speech that doesn't entrench their position.

Known as the paradox of tolerance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

If you stop treating it as a moral commandment and instead consider it a treaty which allows civilization to exist, it becomes obvious that it doesn't apply to those who won't remain bound by it. It's not a paradox.

Tolerance is for all points of view that will allow the discussion to continue.

Re: Naomi Wu and the Silence That Speaks Volumes

#100

Post by stale2002 » Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 2:07 AM UTC

Oh the irony of this happening to someone like Naomi Wu, given past things that she posts about.

People should remember this any time they see an influencer living in China who is highly critical of the west and yet suspiciously silent on issues within China.

The answer is, of course, that as soon as one of these influencers cross the line they or their family get threatened with jail time.

It makes it difficult to argue with them or engage in good faith on topics of international politics when this is the real reason why they publicity say certain things.