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LK-99 isn’t a superconductor

nature.com

221–230 of 754 posts

Re: LK-99 isn’t a superconductor

#221
post #187

So is LK-99 still something that may be useful in some other way due to some confirmed property? Or was all this just a mistake, from a usefulness perspective. It was fun to watch, nice to get hope of something so cool, and good to see the scientific process in action. But is there any reason to keep researching LK-99 over some other random compound?

One of the papers that argued that LK-99's levitation was due to mixed diamagnetism and weak ferromagnetism also assigned it a very strong diamagnetism: -2•10^-4, which would make it the second-strongest such material known, beating out bismuth. Probably not that useful, but interesting if confirmed.

I read some of the papers linked in this article, but they use different units and don't identify a diamagnetic susceptibility in the way that I'm used to, so I'm not sure if that was confirmed (and I have stuff to do).

Re: LK-99 isn’t a superconductor

#222
I'm more upset that it was possible to successfully register a patent on the LK-99. On the one hand, patent services seem to be not obliged to check the workability of the patents, but on the other hand this is absolutely malicious activity, as it is a direct road to patent trolling and fraud on non-existent intellectual property.

Re: LK-99 isn’t a superconductor

#223

It’s disappointing news but the excitement and amount of replication on this paper was pretty fun to witness and experience. To me the most interesting part was everyone talking about potential consequences, uses, the order of magnitude improvements we’d see in certain costs or areas. Pumps, MRIs, power grids, chips, etc. Great reminder what materials science can do to some underlying economics.

Agreed! There's this bizarre reaction I see from many where they see the excitement and curiosity and hopefulness as a form of error and source of embarrassment. When mixed with an open mind and reasonable skepticism, it's a powerful opportunity to get people engaged in imagining a different world. I had all kinds of exciting conversations about what a validated, commercially viable LK-99 could produce. Why would I e…

My only gripe was the VCs declaring superconductivity without any evidence. They’re so quick to follow the heard and jump on trends that they do zero diligence in just waiting to see if something is legitimate or not. People being hopefully and discussing possible solutions is not a problem. But VCs declaring that it’s the future and you’re falling behind if you’re not working on it is the problem.

Re: LK-99 isn’t a superconductor

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Jain, a copper-sulfide expert I would have never known that people are actual experts in one material. This is impressive.

One of my professors was an expert in the Helium-3 isotope. Spent a lot of time on the second excited state.

That's some of the most interesting matter.

Re: LK-99 isn’t a superconductor

#225
post #14

In their preprint, the Korean authors note one particular temperature at which LK-99’s showed a tenfold drop in resistivity, from about 0.02 ohms per centimetre to 0.002 ohms per cm. “They were very precise about it. 104.8ºC,” says Prashant Jain, a chemist at the University of Illinois Urbana–Champaign. “I was like, wait a minute, I know this temperature.” The reaction that synthesizes LK-99 uses an unbalanced recipe…

Iris, the fabled ethnicly Russian LK99 Homebrewer with the Catgirl Girlfriend, is not convinced : - "70% CuS impurity" are you sure you didn't grab the Chalcocite by accident? - There's no significant CuS in samples prepared at 925°C. There cannot be. - I tried forcefully introducing sulfide into pbo, it just. Doesn't work. Even at 600°C. PbS reduces lead in 2 PbO to 3Pb, leaving as SO2. https://twitter.com/iris_IGB/…

I really wish less people would give pseudo-anon accounts this much credence. Literally no good science has (ever?) been done on Twitter/X, it's mostly just stupid equivocating. Much thanks goes out to the actual scientists out there working in labs and publishing their findings.

The academic/publishing process is far from perfect already (conflicts of interest, funding, political pressure, institutional pressure, personal pride), now imagine throwing a "Catgirl Girlfriend" (that trolls on an anonymous social media account) into the mix.

Free speech is fine, it's the listeners I have a problem with.

Re: LK-99 isn’t a superconductor

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most PhDs are incredibly specific and don’t necessary indicate broad knowledge of a field as a whole. Which is why you should be wary of “experts” making overly broad claims about topics within their field but far outside their area of expertise. Early on during Covid you would see postdoc infectious disease experts on every news channel 3 times daily giving their takes. Some of whom maybe took a 3000 level course in…

> Technically an infectious disease expert but I don’t particularly care what they have to say about Covid over a random person on the street either. I would absolutely care more what they had to say over the rando, especially if they prefaced it with their level experience.

Depends on the grade they got in that 3000 course, though I tend to agree with you

Re: LK-99 isn’t a superconductor

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it perilous to treat an entire community as it if has one voice. Ie. "the HN discussion" as a singular entity with a singular binary state on its skepticism. Someone else could equally claim that the HN community was super pessimistic and skeptical about it, because I certainly saw a lot of that too! While a convenient abstraction, it plays into our biases to notice and remember only some of the discourse. Plu…

> Plus I don't think it's really relevant to what I'm saying given I'm not making a claim about how any specific individual or group reacted, but that it's odd when there's people who treat an optimistic outlook as an error. An optimistic outlook without a semi-plausible basis that you can convincingly elaborate on, or link a vaguely credible source doing so, IS an error, at least going by HN norms.

Optimism isn’t gullibility!

It is just an attitude that values positive possibilities over fretting about negative possibilities.

Especially in cases where there is a small chance of a huge upside, relative to virtually no downside. We didn’t lose any superconductors. :)

I don’t recall anyone on HN erroneously declaring the material was definitely a new superconductor before subsequent evidence arrived at a consistent conclusion.

There is nothing wrong with optimism.

Re: LK-99 isn’t a superconductor

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the excitement and amount of replication on this paper was pretty fun to witness and experience. I was really elated to see how people were so interested and getting to see what peer review in science actually looks like. How in the real world it is done outside of journals and conferences, which people frequently give the misnomer "peer review." I hope people will walk away from this experience with a better u…

Unfortunately I don't think we got "to see what peer review in science actually looks like" because this was such an unusual deal. The amount of interest and excitement gave us the ideal amount of peer review/reproduction. For the vast majority of things nobody even tries to reproduce it, and many of the publishers don't even provide the tools needed to do so.

Yeah, I agree that for the vast majority of things most people don't try. Or at least publicly demonstrate that they tried (key phrasing). But it is also silly to think that 3-5 people sitting at a desk reading a summary of work can validate said work. Really they can only invalidate or specify that it is indeterminate, but neither of these are validation. Which that's a key difference from the general public understanding of "peer review" (meaning journal publication).

But it might also be worth noting that often reproduction happens behind the scene. People point to big works like that which comes out of CERN, LIGO, or other massive projects and state that such works cannot be replicated. But actually those have high rates of replication, which is why there are hundreds of authors on the work.

For LK-99, people got to see a lot of what is typically done by grad students who never tell the public what they did (or even their community). That the communication between scientists is happening through preprints, email, twitter, and other methods that are not journal publications. Because science happens faster than the journal cycle. Most scientists are reading preprints, and letting the work dictate the signal of validity long before a journal can.

But what I was alluding to, which you might have picked up on, is that the reward system we have in place ("publish or perish", h-index, journals, etc) are misaligned as they do not reward this cornerstone of science -- replication -- (typically discourages is) unless there are credible claims of breakthroughs of the highest kind. Maybe we should rethink this system, and I hope that the timing of this along with the other discussions of academic fraud can help people to question the system and metrics that we use to evaluate, and ask if they are actually aligned with the original goals.

Re: LK-99 isn’t a superconductor

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that was my first thought. There are absolutely instruments which can directly measure resistance down to 10E-8 ohms/m or lower, and I would expect any lab doing research into superconductivity to at least have one of those.

Also, "not a superconductor" means that it can't superconduct at any temperature. Where is the evidence of that? Or it's just clickbait?

By that logic we might as well say that wood is a superconductor

Nobody has tested it at 0.0000000000000K after all

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