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‘I've got nothing to hide’ and other misunderstandings of privacy (2007)

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Re: ‘I've got nothing to hide’ and other misunderstandings of privacy (2007)

#261

Post by Zetice »

danShumway wrote: post #259
Zetice wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument relies on "one single negative outcome" to be enough of a reason not to do anything. Obviously I know you live incongruously with your argument; that's my entire point! Glad you're figuring that out, but that doesn't mean your argument suddenly has merit, just because you're aware of how bad it is. I'm not missing anything, you're just failing to resolve your internal inconsistency.

Look, your risk analysis of privacy harms does not become accurate just because you say it is. Saying that this is "one single negative outcome" a bunch of times doesn't make it true. Pretty much the entirety of recorded human history backs up the idea that privacy matters, including the present where state governments are currently campaigning hospitals and social platforms to identify transgender people and to pros…

You can call me wrong, you can claim you’re not arguing that one casualty is too many, but your actual argument remains that any negative consequences of giving up some privacy for substantive benefit are infinitesimally small yet somehow not worth the real value provided.

Stop trying to explain how your current argument isn’t what it clearly is, and make a better one!

Re: ‘I've got nothing to hide’ and other misunderstandings of privacy (2007)

#262

Post by dredmorbius »

hackernewds wrote: post #66
anotherevan wrote: post #60

"I need privacy, not because my actions are questionable, but because your judgement and intentions are." https://infosec.exchange/@itisiboller/109472911587284824

I'd like to save this quote. However Hackernews provides not much functionality in-platform to do so. Although I will contend the quote needs to be amended, since this doesn't apply to agents whose actions and intentions are questionable, and I would prefer they are not able to hide them.

Vaguely related, there's taoup.fortune: https://gist.github.com/globalcitizen/dba12c237722811e64fb86...>

Re: ‘I've got nothing to hide’ and other misunderstandings of privacy (2007)

#263

Post by dredmorbius »

quickthrower2 wrote: post #140
GuB-42 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article addresses that exact retort, and others in the same style. Here is what it says. > Such responses only attack the nothing to hide argument in its most extreme form, which is not particularly strong. The article is way more nuanced, it makes a point in attacking the real argument and not the strawman. Framing the debate into a privacy/security tradeoff. And btw, my naked body ranks pretty low in the list o…

The most private part of your body is often not covered anyway. Your fingerprint.

Or iris.

And then there's the people whose minds are so open their brains are falling out ... ;-)

Re: ‘I've got nothing to hide’ and other misunderstandings of privacy (2007)

#264

Post by danShumway »

Zetice wrote: post #261
danShumway wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, your risk analysis of privacy harms does not become accurate just because you say it is. Saying that this is "one single negative outcome" a bunch of times doesn't make it true. Pretty much the entirety of recorded human history backs up the idea that privacy matters, including the present where state governments are currently campaigning hospitals and social platforms to identify transgender people and to pros…

You can call me wrong, you can claim you’re not arguing that one casualty is too many, but your actual argument remains that any negative consequences of giving up some privacy for substantive benefit are infinitesimally small yet somehow not worth the real value provided. Stop trying to explain how your current argument isn’t what it clearly is, and make a better one!

Your risk analysis is wrong. Your math is wrong.

What you think is a minor risk is a much larger risk than you suppose. And your analysis of the downsides of privacy improvements are wrong as well:

It takes 30 seconds to install Signal. There is no substantive benefit to Facebook's messenger not being E2EE. Privacy is not the reason why it's hard for you to get a copy of your medical records or migrate accounts across services. There is no massive substantive social benefit to advertisers tracking you across the web, and your life is not going to suddenly get worse if you install an adblocker.

This is the equivalent of putting on a bicycle helmet, getting a vaccine, wearing a seatbelt. It's not hard and it doesn't hurt you and the risks of ignoring clearly established safeguards are greater than you think. Your math is wrong.

> Stop trying to explain how your current argument isn’t what it clearly is

:D That is one way to approach a discussion, but it's not one I feel particularly obligated to take seriously or treat respectfully. I'm not really interested in having an argument about whether or not I'm lying to you when I tell you what exactly I believe. That would be a pointlessly inane, obviously unproductive waste of time.

I didn't know we were allowed to just say what the other person believes and then double down when they explain otherwise. If that kind of nonsense is allowed, then I've got to say that I think it's really weird that you've been secretly objecting to privacy on purely religious grounds the whole time :)

Re: ‘I've got nothing to hide’ and other misunderstandings of privacy (2007)

#265

Post by t0bia_s »

In this new world we need accept transparency and I'll even say total transparency. Everything going to be transparent and you have to get used to it, you'll have to behave accordingly. It becomes, how should I put it, integrated into your personality, but if you have nothing to hide... you shouldn't be afraid.

- Klasu Schwab in 2016, source: https://youtu.be/IJcey1PPiIM?t=414

Re: ‘I've got nothing to hide’ and other misunderstandings of privacy (2007)

#266

Post by midasuni »

bemusedthrow75 wrote: post #225
midasuni wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for those viewers who persist in believing that the surveillance system in Hot Fuzz exists in reality... They really do. Not just council cctv cameras, which are less problematic - any local Facebook group is full of pictures from ring doorbells of people who look like “trouble” who have the wrong skin colour, wrong clothing, wrong age etc. This is the norm and is embraced by a nation of curtain twitchers.

That is not the surveillance panopticon that HNers imagine. That is "Little Brother" -- prurient neighbour-watching. Yeah, Little Brother is everywhere. (It's the bigger threat to our culture, IMO). But this isn't a UK-specific problem. The USA, for example, has Homeowner Associations, which tie neighbourhood-watch curtain-twitching and petty compliance to personal freedoms, property values, paint colour and lawnmowi…

They do however have the ability to ask homeowners for ring footage without a warrant, and British homeowners on the whole are eager to inform on their neighbours

Re: ‘I've got nothing to hide’ and other misunderstandings of privacy (2007)

#267

Post by Zetice »

danShumway wrote: post #264
Zetice wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can call me wrong, you can claim you’re not arguing that one casualty is too many, but your actual argument remains that any negative consequences of giving up some privacy for substantive benefit are infinitesimally small yet somehow not worth the real value provided. Stop trying to explain how your current argument isn’t what it clearly is, and make a better one!

Your risk analysis is wrong. Your math is wrong. What you think is a minor risk is a much larger risk than you suppose. And your analysis of the downsides of privacy improvements are wrong as well: It takes 30 seconds to install Signal. There is no substantive benefit to Facebook's messenger not being E2EE. Privacy is not the reason why it's hard for you to get a copy of your medical records or migrate accounts acros…

Your argument relies on the miscalculation of risk, and now exposed you can’t even actually articulate an alternative reason why privacy is so important.

Re: ‘I've got nothing to hide’ and other misunderstandings of privacy (2007)

#268

Post by danShumway »

Zetice wrote: post #267
danShumway wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your risk analysis is wrong. Your math is wrong. What you think is a minor risk is a much larger risk than you suppose. And your analysis of the downsides of privacy improvements are wrong as well: It takes 30 seconds to install Signal. There is no substantive benefit to Facebook's messenger not being E2EE. Privacy is not the reason why it's hard for you to get a copy of your medical records or migrate accounts acros…

Your argument relies on the miscalculation of risk, and now exposed you can’t even actually articulate an alternative reason why privacy is so important.

> Your argument relies on the miscalculation of risk

:shrug: Six million Jews would like a word with you.

If that's not enough, consider that there might be a reason why we literally have laws preventing the requirement of disclosure of sex/race in hiring today? Consider the countless studies about how anonymity benefits the ability of oppressed groups (particularly women) to participate in public spaces online, consider that the Supreme Court has very directly said that anonymity and privacy are an essential component of 1st Amendment rights. You also still really haven't grappled with the fact that multiple states today are pushing to get access to medical records and social media messages both to prosecute people and label minority groups. These are not issues that are affecting only one or two people.

And again, the "benefit" that we're giving up by being more private is negligible. There's very little downside to encrypting messages or blocking ad networks from tracking people. The entirety of recorded human history disagrees with your risk analysis, in addition to pretty much every single 1st Amendment expert and minority advocacy/anti-hate group today. Your math is wrong.

Re: ‘I've got nothing to hide’ and other misunderstandings of privacy (2007)

#269

Post by Zetice »

danShumway wrote: post #268
Zetice wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument relies on the miscalculation of risk, and now exposed you can’t even actually articulate an alternative reason why privacy is so important.

> Your argument relies on the miscalculation of risk :shrug: Six million Jews would like a word with you. If that's not enough, consider that there might be a reason why we literally have laws preventing the requirement of disclosure of sex/race in hiring today? Consider the countless studies about how anonymity benefits the ability of oppressed groups (particularly women) to participate in public spaces online, cons…

So you admit your argument is predicated on the number of people who are harmed.

What you fail to realize is I said "modern history". WWII was nearly 80 years ago, and since then, society has improved in gigantic leaps and bounds.

What happened to the Jews in Nazi Germany is no longer possible in the western world, therefore absolute privacy is unnecessary.

As I said:

> Every time in modern history western society has started down the path of outlawing some form of existence, we self correct.

Re: ‘I've got nothing to hide’ and other misunderstandings of privacy (2007)

#270

Post by danShumway »

Zetice wrote: post #269
danShumway wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your argument relies on the miscalculation of risk :shrug: Six million Jews would like a word with you. If that's not enough, consider that there might be a reason why we literally have laws preventing the requirement of disclosure of sex/race in hiring today? Consider the countless studies about how anonymity benefits the ability of oppressed groups (particularly women) to participate in public spaces online, cons…

So you admit your argument is predicated on the number of people who are harmed. What you fail to realize is I said "modern history". WWII was nearly 80 years ago, and since then, society has improved in gigantic leaps and bounds. What happened to the Jews in Nazi Germany is no longer possible in the western world, therefore absolute privacy is unnecessary. As I said: > Every time in modern history western society ha…

> So you admit your argument is predicated on the number of people who are harmed.

What, yeah, of course it is. What on earth are you talking about, which part of "your math is wrong" didn't you understand?

Lack of privacy hurts people. Not one or two people, it hurts a lot of people. It might hurt you one day. And that's worth caring about. It's worth caring about because it's a lot of people. If you didn't realize that I was talking about risk/harms then you really didn't understand a word I was saying.

Yes, I'm talking about risk. Your math about the risk is wrong. It's not a gotcha that it's apparently taken you to this point in the conversation to understand that "your math is wrong" means "your analysis of the number of people that are hurt by lack of privacy is incorrect."

> and since then, society has improved in gigantic leaps and bounds.

Society has improved slowly, via heavy investment from anonymous activists and advocates who put themselves in harms way to improve it. Every single one of those activist movements relied on privacy. Quite frankly, there really aren't many examples of social movements that have improved society that haven't heavily used privacy and anonymity to aid them. Certainly at the very least this displays a startling lack of knowledge about the history of race and gender in America.

> is no longer possible in the western world

:) Citation very, very much needed. We have a political party in America with members who are openly calling for the extermination of transgender identity, headed by a political ideologue who's currently being prosecuted for (essentially) attempting a coup. Despite that he's still favored to be the next presidential nominee of that party because the majority of that party doesn't view attempting a coup as disqualifying from office.

It is incredibly naive to believe that we are no longer capable of doing terrible things in America to oppressed identities or capable of building political and social apparatus to do those terrible things.

> Every time in modern history western society has started down the path of outlawing some form of existence, we self correct.

And as I said, that self correction is of no benefit whatsoever for the 6 million Jews that died. Self correction is not protection. Privacy is protection.

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