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Great Founder Theory (2020)

samoburja.com

81–89 of 89 posts

Re: Great Founder Theory (2020)

#81
Interest thing. Before Ukrainian war I have very critical view on Great_man_theory, but during war my opinion changed.

What I really see, at calm time, great man is not important, because just free market work good enough.

But at tough time, great man could save lot of lives, lot of resources.

Same thing works at very large organizations - at lowest levels of hierarchy, general persons are good enough, but on top, need great man.

So idea, that at some scale, need exceptional people.

Re: Great Founder Theory (2020)

#82
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn’t require belief in the great man theory: progress can ebb and flow under any theory of history. Besides: there is no point in history that’s identifiable as “the fall of Rome.” The Western Empire declined over the course of three centuries; the Eastern Empire arguably never fell at all. The idea of the “fall” comes from the same period of historical theorization as the “great man” framework; it’s not wide…

We’re splitting hairs now. Let me rephrase again. There was a period when Rome was ridiculously wealthy (gold from Spain etc). It was a time when science could have advanced rapidly but didn’t. My point was that a few “great men” there might have changed history.

> It was a time when science could have advanced rapidly but didn’t.

I don't think this is accepted anymore. The material conditions for the Industrial Revolution were pretty specific and didn't show up in the age of Rome, despite all their riches.

Re: Great Founder Theory (2020)

#83
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question isn't whether they need more people to make it all work. That's not in dispute. It's the degree to which any of these people are replaceable. If you removed any of the engineers working on the iPhone Jobs would have hired another engineer and cracked on with the project. Maybe there would have been more bugs, or slightly worse features, maybe there would be some things better. Take out Jobs, and there is…

so become irreplaceable or be turned into a commodity...?

Already happened, my dude. I would run away into the forest, never to be seen again, but I got that idea from the Internet, too

Re: Great Founder Theory (2020)

#84
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I think you would have a very difficult time arguing that history wouldn't have been drastically different if say, Muhammad the individual hadn't made the decisions he did." Would it make you feel differently if you knew that there were dozens of competing offshoots of Abrahamic religions in the area at the time? What if you viewed the Abrahamic religions as a set of policies and processes that were basically the ge…

Well I don’t think it’s a given that some form of Abrahamic religion would have inevitably become Islam-like and had the same trajectory. There were a lot of unique features of Muhammad that ending up having a major positive effect on the subsequent conquests. Not to mention the particular historical situation of the Byzantines and Persians that allowed for such expansion. If someone other than Muhammad had come a fe…

> There were a lot of unique features of Muhammad that ending up having a major positive effect on the subsequent conquests

I'm not sure I buy it... I just don't think things hinge so delicately on individuals. Generally if one person has an idea, thousands of people around them have the same idea. The limiting factor is how many of those thousands have the time, resources, and will to follow through with the idea. The distribution of excess time, resources & will has a pretty strong correlation to environmental & socioeconomic factors.

As for the borders of whatever empire expanded from that region, sure they would have been different. I don't think there would have been an exact correlate of Islam necessarily.

But if you look at the period of ~500s to ~1500s as a golden age for merchant kingdoms in that region, where they built off the intellectual foundations that were spread by rome, I think that was basically inevitable.

I also think it makes sense that something like a religious ideology would be a catalyst for that, to unite so many disparate people in a way they can trust each other and work together in a decentralized fashion.

And for that religious ideology to stick around and take a conservative turn after centuries of antagonism, colonialism, and interference from the west, that also seems like a pretty natural course of events.

The specifics of each country definitely have variance and could have turned out differently. But as you zoom out I think that if trends are happening on a scale of 10s or 100s of millions people, it's got a deeper underlying cause.

I think of it in terms of physics. A person can't lift a huge steel beam by themselves. There's a larger force at play when the beam gets lifted... a larger well of potential energy. The aligning of that well of potential energy to the goal of lifting the beam takes a certain amount of time. One person could lift it by themselves over time if they create a lever and add counterweights, but it would take more time. However a skyscraper? A single person could never build a skyscraper on their own. Think of how much mass is in an army and how much energy is exerted in moving that army across a continent. How can a person deliberately cause so much mass to be moved? They can only do so by tapping into a well of potential energy that already was created. That potential energy must come from somewhere, and when the army moves across the continent, they are expending that potential energy. The process can only continue if the energy well is being replenished. That replenishment is part of the machinery of society. An individual person isn't going to singlehandedly author that machinery in a group larger than the size of an ape troupe. It takes a lot of energy to modify that machinery at the scale of even a small city. A single person can only make minor contributions to the modification of the machinery at the historical scale.

Re: Great Founder Theory (2020)

#85
post #73
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overly sneering. Holy shit. People who write 200 page books with chapters named "How Elon Musk made engineering cool again" deserve ridicule.

>Overly sneering. Of course it is... if the author said to you in real life, at a party, "I've been working on a book called X and it roughly follows this thesis", a regular person wouldn't immediately take your tone, it's an entirely online persona, and if it's not, then it's not well socially adjusted. Ridicule has it's place, but you're acting like the author is pretending that the Great Man Theory doesn't exist a…

If I brought this up at a party, everyone I know would be down to dunk on this guy with me because we all understand that the actual anti-social behavior is this insane book where someone spilled 200 pages of ink to beat off founders. It's just another artifact in the self aggrandizing culture that is Silicon Valley.

Re: Great Founder Theory (2020)

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think anyone is saying that those idiosyncratic details have no local impact whatsoever just that over the long run they mostly get filtered out as noise.

But these don’t just have local impact. They often entirely change the trajectory of history. For example: what if Caesar has a son earlier in life and by the time he is killed, this son becomes his heir instead of Octavian? The son isn’t as clever as Octavian, he loses the civil war to Antony, who is far less capable of setting up the infrastructure of the empire. Rome collapses centuries earlier - or the Senate reg…

[deleted]

Re: Great Founder Theory (2020)

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think anyone is saying that those idiosyncratic details have no local impact whatsoever just that over the long run they mostly get filtered out as noise.

But these don’t just have local impact. They often entirely change the trajectory of history. For example: what if Caesar has a son earlier in life and by the time he is killed, this son becomes his heir instead of Octavian? The son isn’t as clever as Octavian, he loses the civil war to Antony, who is far less capable of setting up the infrastructure of the empire. Rome collapses centuries earlier - or the Senate reg…

Then the roman empire would have been led by someone slightly different and perhaps had slightly different borders.

> who is far less capable of setting up the infrastructure of the empire

This is where we diverge.. I consider setting up empire-wide infrastructure to be something that largely happens due to socioeconomic forces and the environmental conditions of the empire, not something that 1 guy decides to do alone. If Antony won the civil war, he would still be in command of an economic juggernaut, and other politicians and advisors would start suggesting projects to help out their constituents and sponsors. If he kept suggesting stupid ideas, people close to him would tell him they're stupid and he would have resistance to them.

Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of variance. Obviously there's a place like North Korea. But if you average out the political situation across that whole region over about 50 years... add a bit of blur to the whole thing, both to the borders, the times, the ideologies... it starts to look more like ideas reverberating through a network. Sometimes all the random noise will come together and interfere constructively to make a region of large amplitude.

Basically, instead of thinking of history so much through the lens of names of rulers, etc, think of it through the lens of a random guy in the "ohio" of the empire you're considering. You think the life of some random guy in modern day Slovenia was affected much by things that were purely Octavian's whims? Even further, strip out all the names and people, and just think of it in terms of physical materials moving across the mediterranean... you think the total flow of grain from egypt to the surrounding areas was much affected by these political situations? Do you think if you looked at a video that showed the change of historic economic activity of the various regions of Rome with no dates or political boundaries shown, that you would be able to distinguish the transition of rome from republic to empire?

Re: Great Founder Theory (2020)

#88
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But these don’t just have local impact. They often entirely change the trajectory of history. For example: what if Caesar has a son earlier in life and by the time he is killed, this son becomes his heir instead of Octavian? The son isn’t as clever as Octavian, he loses the civil war to Antony, who is far less capable of setting up the infrastructure of the empire. Rome collapses centuries earlier - or the Senate reg…

Then the roman empire would have been led by someone slightly different and perhaps had slightly different borders. > who is far less capable of setting up the infrastructure of the empire This is where we diverge.. I consider setting up empire-wide infrastructure to be something that largely happens due to socioeconomic forces and the environmental conditions of the empire, not something that 1 guy decides to do alo…

Sorry, but I'm not super interested in arguing about this, because you seem pretty convinced that the modern "systems and trends" approach is the only correct answer.

> I consider setting up empire-wide infrastructure to be something that largely happens due to socioeconomic forces and the environmental conditions of the empire, not something that 1 guy decides to do alone

Yes, well, that's not how history actually happened. I suggest reading more about Augustus the individual and the decisions he made. A different person would have made different decisions – which yes, would have reverberated down to the common man in "Ohio", especially if his formerly peaceful locale is now a warzone or if his children are drafted into the military.

Augustus laid the bureaucratic and financial foundation for the Empire and without him, there's no guarantee that the Roman Empire actually exists. So again, no, the empire would not "have been led by someone slightly different and perhaps had slightly different borders." It may have splintered into eastern and western divisions sooner, been overrun by barbarians more quickly, or fractured into the pieces held by the various factions.

https://www.worldhistory.org/article/905/reforms-of-augustus...

This exact same scenario has happened many times WRT Muhammad, Napoleon, Constantine, George Washington, et cetera et cetera. The idea that individuals are just interchangeable cogs is just a 20th century cultural trope, not an accurate reading of history.

Re: Great Founder Theory (2020)

#89
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the roman empire would have been led by someone slightly different and perhaps had slightly different borders. > who is far less capable of setting up the infrastructure of the empire This is where we diverge.. I consider setting up empire-wide infrastructure to be something that largely happens due to socioeconomic forces and the environmental conditions of the empire, not something that 1 guy decides to do alo…

Sorry, but I'm not super interested in arguing about this, because you seem pretty convinced that the modern "systems and trends" approach is the only correct answer. > I consider setting up empire-wide infrastructure to be something that largely happens due to socioeconomic forces and the environmental conditions of the empire, not something that 1 guy decides to do alone Yes, well, that's not how history actually h…

You're stating something that's obviously your opinion as if it's fact, so I'm not particularly interested in discussing with you either.

None of what you just said directly addresses what I intended to communicate. Nobody is suggesting that people don't make any decisions. Nobody is suggesting that literally everything would have happened exactly the same if different people were involved.

What I am suggesting: there are a number of characteristics which are required to become a US president right now. Those characteristics drastically skew the probability of certain decisions being made versus if a person were picked at random. Furthermore, if by statistical anomaly someone did make drastically different decisions, there are several correction mechanisms that would prevent the effects from reaching too far... see Julius Caesar for example. But he's even an exception that proves the rule, as his ascent to power was only possible once the republic was in a certain state of decay.

So yes, Augustus made many decision that changed the course of history. However so did many other people, and just like the binomial distribution of catching stoplights green or red causes trip times to be normally distributed as the number of stoplights goes to infinity, decisions which bolster or hinder macroeconomic factors cause them to be normally distributed as the number of decisions and decisionmakers goes to infinity.

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