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Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

nytimes.com

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Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#171

Post by mattmaroon »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #108
mattmaroon wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, a very high % of taxes come from either businesses or people who make more than the average GM worker. Plus a $25 billion dollar loan to GM isn't the same thing, from the taxpayers perspective, as giving them $25 billion. Presumably it will be paid back with interest. Of course, it won't get as much interest as people could earn investing their own money in the private sector, or they'd all be buying GM bonds a…

Why do you think GM will survive long enough to pay us back?

I don't unless the loan comes with conditions ensuring that, which is why I'm against it. I'm just pointing out that the issue isn't as simple as its being made to sound.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#172

Post by fakeslimshady »

crabapple wrote: post #11

one must ask why a waitress at denny's who makes minimum wage and has no healthcare must bail out union workers at gm who make 8x the wages, do less work, have ZERO DEDUCTABLE healthcare (do you? i doubt it), and full pensions. or why should a succesful worker at honda in ohio subsidize not only a failed competitor, but in essence have his own taxation used to undermine his own hard work? as for saving jobs and inves…

There are probably 100s of industries and sectors imploding in this depression (folks hitech is getting there) that don't have lobbying power like the Autos. Instead bailing out Autos or Wall Street, this money needs to bailing out the wave of people that are going to enviably lose there jobs no matter what plan is done. But we should get something for the useful and lasting for the money - build Nuclear Power Plants, build a 100Mbs internet like they have in Japan/Korea, etc.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#173

Post by anamax »

Retric wrote: post #130
adamc wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tax on $16k per year is miniscule, if any.

SS works out to ~15.3% add Medicare etc, and they are at ~20% the absolute top tax rate is 35% assuming zero deductions but capital gains is only 15%. With 16k * .2 we get 3,200$ in tax. Earned income tax credit = $428 with no qualifying children wow that helps.

For low-income folks, SS is an okay investment in their retirement. Given that, why are we counting it as a tax?

For upper-income folks, SS is a really crappy investment. (The difference is because benefits are not proportional to pay-in.) The cap keeps them from caring, much.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#174

Post by mchristoff »

blurry wrote: post #143
mchristoff wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it really disgusts me that this comment has been upmodded so much. it reeks of overgeneralization, ignorance, and hyperbole. it's very easy to sit on your high horse and talk about hypothetical denny's waitresses, but a little harder when this actually effects you and your loved ones. my father worked his ass off for GM for more than 25 years, not to mention driving 100 miles each way for the last 10 so his family di…

You know what disgusts me ? Your complete blindness to how good your father had it. As a not-so-recent immigrant to the US, I've found it laughably easy to have a good life here. I am not talking about myself since I came at 25 and spoke enough English to get by. I am talking older relatives and their friends, people well into their 50's who did not speak a word of English. There is an absolute wealth of opportunitie…

woah woah woah! i appreciate your zeal and your need to direct your anger somewhere, but your sending it the wrong way buddy. my original comment was not meant to express how hard mine or my family's life is/was, it was to clear up statements like this:

"union workers at gm who make 8x the wages, do less work"

It's simply not true, and it does disgust me that we feel the need to degrade a whole class of people to make the point that the system is fucked up. i'll be the first one to say that all of us who live in the country are extremely lucky and this goes often quite unappreciated. maybe not my father, but both my grandfathers have similar story's to your own. i thank god everyday for the opportunity afforded to me and my family.

"Your father on the other hand, had it so easy that he could afford to put his kids through college and still retire after just 25 years of work. Oh, excuse me, I forgot. Your dad had to endure a 2-3 hour commute because it would be so traumatizing for his kids to switch schools once."

listen man, i'm not getting into a pissing contest with you. your taking little tidbits of my words and making them into the story that you want. you don't know my story nor my families.

the point of my original comment was that for the most part auto-workers are honest, working people like the rest of us. there's plenty of room for rational argument on what should happen to the auto industry, i just can't agree with the constant barrage of comments insinuating that people like my father are lazy, unappreciative, and somehow got what's coming to them for just doing what anyone of us would do in their situation.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#175

Post by mchristoff »

Xichekolas wrote: post #94
crabapple wrote: post #11

one must ask why a waitress at denny's who makes minimum wage and has no healthcare must bail out union workers at gm who make 8x the wages, do less work, have ZERO DEDUCTABLE healthcare (do you? i doubt it), and full pensions. or why should a succesful worker at honda in ohio subsidize not only a failed competitor, but in essence have his own taxation used to undermine his own hard work? as for saving jobs and inves…

I'm wondering where these GM employees with zero deductible healthcare are. My dad is a retiree, and the last time he had zero deductible healthcare was in 1998, when it was much cheaper for the company. Nowdays he pays 100% of his office visits and has some yearly deductible for other things. It's still a good health plan, but it's not exactly gold-plated. GM has done some incredibly stupid things, even my dad think…

This is exactly my father's situation. Zero deductible health care, huh? Maybe 10 years ago, but certainly not now.

Demononizing honest people based on stereotypes that people cling onto to support their perceived notions does not solve the real problem.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#177

Post by turkishrevenge »

mdasen wrote: post #161
turkishrevenge wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If your company produces 1 car for every 50 hours of labor and another company produces 1 car for every 25 hours of labor, your labor isn't worth as much. If I can automate processes that save time, my labor becomes worth more and yours less." If you automate a process, your labor is worth less. That's the point of automating a manual process--it's necessary to produce competitive advantage. Simultaneously, it allow…

I should have been more clear: If I can automate a process that saves time, my labor becomes worth more with me as the automator. Let's say you work at a University in Residence Life. Each year, 5,000 students all pick where they want to live by coming up in person to you and 4 other people who have to coordinate room availability, write everything down, etc. It takes a long time and requires 5 people. The next year,…

To start, the first example is moot, as a university is not a competitive entity like a manufacturer. Whether they decide to automate depends on a need to save money where possible, not survive in a marketplace.

Second, you just reaffirmed my point. You are confusing productivity with labor value. By writing a script, you've revolutionized the production of obtaining standard investing data. As such, it requires even less labor. In fact, it now requires no labor, since a machine without any human intervention (save for negligible maintenance costs) can do the job! Why should anyone be paid to--according to what you described above--to do nothing. It's all automated. Now, if investment firm B (my firm) wants to compete, it will have to do the same, since it is spending $X amount to collect the data, while your firm spends $0. This is a pointless cost. As such, it will be forced to do the same to stay in business. Now, firm B no longer requires a warm body to perform the aforementioned task, i.e. it no longer employs someone to enter data. How does not employing someone generate wages for them?

By writing your own script, you cancel out your own employment. While true, that the writing of the "awesome" Web 2.0 app (I love yc news, it's full of this stuff) will absorb a fixed amount of labor, thus keeping you employed for the duration of writing it. Once it is completed though, you will be made obsolete. You essentially, wrote your own death sentence. Now don't this is a misguided Luddite speaking, I am a programmer too, and I can sympathize.

I want to keep up this discussion.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#178

Post by sethg »

ars wrote: post #168
sethg wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every contract has two sides, so I don't see why the UAW should be singled out for blame here. The management must have believed that their contract with the auto workers would still leave them enough cash to make a profit--otherwise they never would have signed the contract in the first place!

No, I'm quite sure they signed under duress - it was sign or a strike. Usually contracts made under duress are invalid, but not when it's a union. What makes it worse is that even the employees were under duress - even if they wanted to work, and were not interested in a strike, they couldn't.

The threat of a strike is not duress. "Accept these terms or we won't work for you" is not that different from "accept these terms or we won't sell you steel".

Companies in other unionized industries have pushed unions to accept significant concessions. If the Big Three management had really believed that accepting the UAW's last offer was going to destroy their business, then they were irresponsible not to endure a strike in order to break the union.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#179

Post by nradov »

I see that GM paid out a dividend of $0.25 per common share just a few months ago on 05/14/2008. The problems were well underway by then, yet they chose to piss away about $140MM in cash. That alone should disqualify them for a bailout, at least as long as the current management and board remains in place.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=GM&a=04&b=14&c=2...

At least Ford had the common sense to cut off dividends in 2006.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#180

Post by Retric »

anamax wrote: post #173
Retric wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SS works out to ~15.3% add Medicare etc, and they are at ~20% the absolute top tax rate is 35% assuming zero deductions but capital gains is only 15%. With 16k * .2 we get 3,200$ in tax. Earned income tax credit = $428 with no qualifying children wow that helps.

For low-income folks, SS is an okay investment in their retirement. Given that, why are we counting it as a tax? For upper-income folks, SS is a really crappy investment. (The difference is because benefits are not proportional to pay-in.) The cap keeps them from caring, much.

If you move to the US at 55 work for 10 years and then retire SS is an great return on investment but it's still a tax. What you pay in and what you get out are somewhat related, but there is no advantage to working from 18 - 67 at minimum wage and paying into SS over investing that money in the same time period. They just look at your 30 highest income years which is great for people who don't enter the job market till mid 20's but it sucks for those who skip collage and work till retirement age. They have almost 50 years to save and invest and SS still does not fully replace their salary.
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