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The anesthetic effect of air at atmospheric pressure

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

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Re: The anesthetic effect of air at atmospheric pressure

#61

Post by genewitch »

dsr_ wrote: post #52
slau wrote: post #5

Just completed my deep (40m/120ft) diver certification. A significant amount of the course was focused on nitrogen narcosis, and how to handle/detect it. Apparently, some divers will start feeling the narcotic effect between 20-30m. Beyond 30m, a significant amount of divers can feel the effects. Beyond 40m is the realm of tech diving, with trimix (helium/nitrogen/oxygen) or even heliox (helium/oxygen). I know nothin…

"Except for helium, no other gas exists which does not have some form narcotic effect at higher pressures." I assume the narcotic effect of fluorine, chlorine and bromine are basically unstudied...

i got a lungful of chlorine gas once and it wasn't narcotic in the slightest. I wheezed and coughed for about 20 minutes.

Re: The anesthetic effect of air at atmospheric pressure

#62

Post by genewitch »

jerf wrote: post #50
slau wrote: post #5

Just completed my deep (40m/120ft) diver certification. A significant amount of the course was focused on nitrogen narcosis, and how to handle/detect it. Apparently, some divers will start feeling the narcotic effect between 20-30m. Beyond 30m, a significant amount of divers can feel the effects. Beyond 40m is the realm of tech diving, with trimix (helium/nitrogen/oxygen) or even heliox (helium/oxygen). I know nothin…

"We’re basically continuously narked, we’re just so used to it we don’t even know." Just because one direction on the gradient means that we respond in a way that looks like a narcotic does not mean that the other direction will respond in the opposite manner. I'm sure the nootropics folks would have discovered being super not high by now if it were as easy as breathing a mixture that doesn't have nitrogen in it.

as siblings commented, pure oxygen gets you high. a couple of breaths of pure oxygen will relieve pain and induce euphoria. I am not entirely clear on the definition of "narcotic" so i may be being redundant.

My issue, though, is i can't find a way to safely generate oxygen for a decent price. I know electrolysis works, but these atomic sieves look safer. They're also difficult to acquire without a prescription, at least from my searches in the US. And i know lithium can react to generate oxygen, but that's not what i consider "safe".

Re: The anesthetic effect of air at atmospheric pressure

#63

Post by CamperBob2 »

Raidion wrote: post #22
mholm wrote: post #4

A 10% increase in reaction time could be fairly significant in many sports. Could we start seeing football players, sprinters, or baseball players breathing from masks between plays?

You already see this. Google "NFL oxygen masks". I'm sort of surprised I haven't heard about it in the context of shorter physical sports: I'd wonder what effect it would have on an 100m/200m/400m time or shotput distance to oxygen saturate like free divers do.

Elsewhere in the thread, someone claims that oxygen has a similar narcotic effect. Does the NFL use a helium-oxygen mixture, or pure oxygen?

Re: The anesthetic effect of air at atmospheric pressure

#64

Post by genewitch »

topaz0 wrote: post #29
superkuh wrote: post #3

The action potential is an electrical manipulation of reversible abrupt phase changes in the lipid bilayer. Normally the lipid bilayer is in a liquid phase but the the switching out of monovalent sodium for bivalent calcium ions changes the number of phospholipid carboxyl head groups each ion is electrostatically associated with. This changes the heat capacity and causes the lipid membrane to become a solid/gel phase…

Worth noting that, while this model has been around for a few decades, it does not have many adherents among neuroscientists. Which is not to say that it is wrong necessarily, just that I wouldn't want readers to get the wrong idea that this is a consensus view.

neuroscientists are just mad that "gut feeling" is actually the truth, and we're generally being manipulated by the billions of microbes in our guts. Simple example: why do people crave cake when they're on a diet that doesn't allow cake? There are microbes that convert stuff in grasses (corn, etc) into opioids. Opioids are great, make us feel great, and if we are used to having opioids and suddenly stop, we go into opioid withdrawal.

I haven't really put a fine point on the grand theory of gut-mind-body interaction, but i'm fairly certain that nearly every disorder or disease that isn't external (like radiation or malaria) will eventually be traced back to gut flora, from auto-immune disorders to depression.

Re: The anesthetic effect of air at atmospheric pressure

#65

Post by vondur »

jaggederest wrote: post #51
sithadmin wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I buy your claim that rum was ever used to 'disinfect' fresh water on British Navy ships. The 'grog' mix they used was not of sufficient ABV to disinfect the water, as it was handed out at a 4:1 ratio of water:rum. It was moreso about making the daily rum ration difficult to hoard, and much more efficient to transport than beer or wine.

Grog was at least 10% alcohol, plus lime juice. Navy rum was 65% or 130 proof. That's more than enough to inhibit most waterborne diseases such as cholera (inhibited in wine at 6.25% abv, though wine has tannins and phenols).

Yikes, I just checked, and Captain Morgan's is 35% Alcohol. I'm aware of Bacardi 151 (75.5% alcohol) which is like fire water to me. Can't imagine drinking something so concentrated regularly.

Re: The anesthetic effect of air at atmospheric pressure

#66

Post by That-Dude »

It concluded that the nitrogen in ambient air slightly but measurable impairs human performance compared with a non-anesthetic gas such as helium.

This seems like a massive reach. Is it not possible the body is just perceiving that something is "wrong" about its current situation while breathing helium and is activating a threat response? The study authors didn't even bother to monitor heart rate, let alone blood concentrations of adrenalin and cortisol. This might have been a neat study in 1975 but it is not nearly rigorous enough.

Re: The anesthetic effect of air at atmospheric pressure

#67

Post by jrockway »

vondur wrote: post #65
jaggederest wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grog was at least 10% alcohol, plus lime juice. Navy rum was 65% or 130 proof. That's more than enough to inhibit most waterborne diseases such as cholera (inhibited in wine at 6.25% abv, though wine has tannins and phenols).

Yikes, I just checked, and Captain Morgan's is 35% Alcohol. I'm aware of Bacardi 151 (75.5% alcohol) which is like fire water to me. Can't imagine drinking something so concentrated regularly.

I suppose that's why 1 part of rum got mixed with 4 parts water and some limes.

Re: The anesthetic effect of air at atmospheric pressure

#68

Post by gojomo »

jerf wrote: post #50
slau wrote: post #5

Just completed my deep (40m/120ft) diver certification. A significant amount of the course was focused on nitrogen narcosis, and how to handle/detect it. Apparently, some divers will start feeling the narcotic effect between 20-30m. Beyond 30m, a significant amount of divers can feel the effects. Beyond 40m is the realm of tech diving, with trimix (helium/nitrogen/oxygen) or even heliox (helium/oxygen). I know nothin…

"We’re basically continuously narked, we’re just so used to it we don’t even know." Just because one direction on the gradient means that we respond in a way that looks like a narcotic does not mean that the other direction will respond in the opposite manner. I'm sure the nootropics folks would have discovered being super not high by now if it were as easy as breathing a mixture that doesn't have nitrogen in it.

You'd hope mind-hackers would've explored & confirmed/refuted/quantified the effect, but stuff like this often lies underexplored for decades, despite hints like this 1975 study – which actually shows the 'gradient' of clearer thinking continues in the other direction, no hand-wavy extrapolation required. It's what they found! In 1975!

How long did it take for society to fully recognize, & remediate, the effects of environmental lead? How many people & orgs remain oblivious to the cognitive deficits caused by high indoor CO2 levels?

I hope mind-hackers do some fresh research on this, with the advantage of 2023 levels of wealth/free-time/returns-to-improved-cognition/SCUBA-equipment. There could be some potential for positive surprise around what you're "sure" should've already been discovered.

Re: The anesthetic effect of air at atmospheric pressure

#69

Post by gojomo »

sideshowb wrote: post #38

Anecdotally, as a mountaineer, I love the effect of a little less atmospheric pressure. Not loads less, above 3000m it starts getting inconvenient. But 1000-2000m my mind feels more clear and focused than at sea level. I wonder if this is related?

My understanding from the lit, & experience, is that there's a natural high/mild-euphoria from moving to higher-altitude (despite slight cognitive impairment) for the 1st 24-48 hours. That can then give way to crankiness, until slower adaptation progresses.

And: theres some evidence depression/suicide rates higher even at the mild elevations of places of like Reno NV (~4500'), Bend OR (3500'), or Boulder CO (5500').

Re: The anesthetic effect of air at atmospheric pressure

#70

Post by gamblor956 »

genewitch wrote: post #64
topaz0 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worth noting that, while this model has been around for a few decades, it does not have many adherents among neuroscientists. Which is not to say that it is wrong necessarily, just that I wouldn't want readers to get the wrong idea that this is a consensus view.

neuroscientists are just mad that "gut feeling" is actually the truth, and we're generally being manipulated by the billions of microbes in our guts. Simple example: why do people crave cake when they're on a diet that doesn't allow cake? There are microbes that convert stuff in grasses (corn, etc) into opioids. Opioids are great, make us feel great, and if we are used to having opioids and suddenly stop, we go into…

Cake does not generally contain grasses...and if it were true that there were trains of gut flora that converted sugars to opioids almost everyone in America would live in a perpetual state of intoxication. Sugar withdrawal is also not even remotely similar to opioid withdrawal.
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