I don't get it. Why would you want to remove the opportunity for overtime from any professional? Obviously the employer has a (potentially huge) finanial incentive. But what's the government's view here?
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Computer Professionals Update Act seeks to remove overtime pay for IT workers
21–30 of 44 posts
Re: Computer Professionals Update Act seeks to remove overtime pay for IT workers
#22I am not familiar with US law but if the name of this act ("Fair Labor Standards Act") is anything to go by then it sounds similar to what we have in South Africa, i.e.: - this only covers basic conditions of employment; you're still free to negotiate things that the act doesn't guarantee you - if you earn more than a certain amount or are in a management position, you don't get certain protections because such legis…
How does legally excluding the possibility of overtime protect people earning minimum/low wages. I'm not familiar with SA or US employment law, but how does this work?
Re: Computer Professionals Update Act seeks to remove overtime pay for IT workers
#23I am not familiar with US law but if the name of this act ("Fair Labor Standards Act") is anything to go by then it sounds similar to what we have in South Africa, i.e.: - this only covers basic conditions of employment; you're still free to negotiate things that the act doesn't guarantee you - if you earn more than a certain amount or are in a management position, you don't get certain protections because such legis…
How does legally excluding the possibility of overtime protect people earning minimum/low wages. I'm not familiar with SA or US employment law, but how does this work?
IIRC (IANAL), if you earn below a certain threshold in South Africa, and you're not in a "management" position, the law guarantees you overtime pay and pay on public holidays at a fixed rate (e.g. double in the case of public holidays).
It's a big enough deal that in the past when two public holidays fell on the same day in a given year the national worker unions have successfully requested the government declare a new public holiday since the workers they represent end up losing out on a day of double wages. For instance, 25 and 26 December 2011 fell on Sunday and Monday respectively, and by law public holidays that fall on a Sunday automatically move to the following Monday. That meant workers who would ordinarily work 25 and 26 December earning double wages two days in a row would only earn double wages for one day. In a country where per capita income is barely enough to survive on for the bulk of the population, that's a big deal.
If you earn above the threshold, or you're in a "management" position, the idea is that you don't need this protection and have freely negotiated your contractual terms. I think it's a good balance between:
1. legislating mandatory overtime/work hours (a bad thing, IMO; e.g. there are many entrepreneurs happy to work for peanuts for long hours out of choice, and plenty of managers who won't work for peanuts but accept long hours as part of the job and the rewards that implies)
2. ensuring that cheap (unskilled) labour is not abused (important in a country like South Africa where there is 30-40% unemployment).
Re: Computer Professionals Update Act seeks to remove overtime pay for IT workers
#24I don't get it. Why would you want to remove the opportunity for overtime from any professional? Obviously the employer has a (potentially huge) finanial incentive. But what's the government's view here?
The govt. view is rather simple: Someone has a lot to gain by eliminating overtime pay, and that someone (corporations are people too, in the US) is likely to be or become a donor to said bill sponsors.
Re: Computer Professionals Update Act seeks to remove overtime pay for IT workers
#25The definitions of exempt vs. non exempt in the FLSA have always seemed somewhat arbitrary to me. How about we just let employers offer what ever terms they want and employees decide to accept or reject them? As a bonus we can downsize government by getting rid of the FLSA enforcement bureaucracy .
The reason behind labor standards is to cut off the the distribution curve at a lower limit. If you leave market forces at work, you'll get people working at near slavery conditions because they lack other economic choices (or they think hey do, which is the same thing). Remember that some people used to choose slavery before it was outlawed. The lawmaker sets minimum standards so people don't get exploited because t…
> The reason behind labor standards is to cut off the the distribution curve at a lower limit.
The people below the limit do not magically increase their productivity above the limit. It simply becomss illegal for them to work. They are the American untouchables, farmed by welfare agencies for grant money or simply discarded.
Re: Computer Professionals Update Act seeks to remove overtime pay for IT workers
#26I don't get it. Why would you want to remove the opportunity for overtime from any professional? Obviously the employer has a (potentially huge) finanial incentive. But what's the government's view here?
I am also puzzled by this, but I live in the UK so I'm not familiar with US law or employment practices. I can see why government would legislate to protect minimum or baseline employment rights, but why remove the possibility of earning overtime from a particular group of people? Is this law just about ensuring equivalent practices across all states, or was it simply bought by employers to reduce their costs?
It is about readjusting the base line. They aren't making it illegal to pay overtime. They are removing it from the list of positions that mandate overtime pay.
Re: Computer Professionals Update Act seeks to remove overtime pay for IT workers
#27I don't get it. Why would you want to remove the opportunity for overtime from any professional? Obviously the employer has a (potentially huge) finanial incentive. But what's the government's view here?
A very general difference is being paid for your labor vs your thoughts. People paid for their labor are paid by the hour and get overtime. People paid for their thoughts usually get paid per year, and don't get overtime. I guess the general idea is that you are always thinking, so how would it be possible to decide when you are or are not on the clock? (Obviously this is a generalization with lots of exceptions, it'…
I do not like that line of thinking! Per your view, the employer can then claim your "thoughts" outside of the office as their "property". Anytime someone puts a[n] employment agreement that claims right to all my intellectual output while employed I say "Thanks, but no thanks."
Re: Computer Professionals Update Act seeks to remove overtime pay for IT workers
#28I've never had overtime pay as a web dev in Sweden but several of my employments, my current one included, offers an additional week of vacation per year as compensation.
Re: Computer Professionals Update Act seeks to remove overtime pay for IT workers
#29The definitions of exempt vs. non exempt in the FLSA have always seemed somewhat arbitrary to me. How about we just let employers offer what ever terms they want and employees decide to accept or reject them? As a bonus we can downsize government by getting rid of the FLSA enforcement bureaucracy .
The reason behind labor standards is to cut off the the distribution curve at a lower limit. If you leave market forces at work, you'll get people working at near slavery conditions because they lack other economic choices (or they think hey do, which is the same thing). Remember that some people used to choose slavery before it was outlawed. The lawmaker sets minimum standards so people don't get exploited because t…
Expanding on your comments...
The reason behind labor standards is that without them companies will do everything in their power to take advantage of their workforce (see early 20th century America, specifically coal mining in Appalachia, which, to be honest, hasn't changed all that much - see modern day, specifically the Upper Branch mine disaster and Massey Energy).
Labor standards enforce a minimum acceptable standard and prevent the kind of race-to-the-bottom we see now (between states, between regions, between countries).
We all need to remember that many of our positions are the exception, not the rule (i.e. we often have the flexibility and freedom to negotiate) There are still hourly contracts in IT and these would be affected by a rule like this. MS gamed the system in WA state to avoid paying overtime while still being able to take advantage of hiring contractors instead of salaried employees (this was in the 90s - unsure if the same system is still in place). Meanwhile, chipping away at the higher salaried workers just makes it easier to chip away at the lower salaried workers (e.g. retail workers, restaurant workers).
We're all in this together.
Re: Computer Professionals Update Act seeks to remove overtime pay for IT workers
#30IBM was involved in some lawsuits about misclassifying workers as exempt. As a result, they said "OK, we agree you qualify for overtime, so we are reducing your base salary by 15% and you can earn overtime on top of that. Oh, and in unrelated news, now there is no overtime hours." It was pretty shitty for the workers in the end.