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Positive association between altitude and suicide in U.S. counties

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

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Re: Positive association between altitude and suicide in U.S. counties

#171

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

kulahan wrote: post #170
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For that to be true, you'd need to establish that blood oxygen levels differ significantly across altitude adapted individuals, and I don't believe that this is the case. Also, when I first moved from Philadelphia to a village in New Mexico at 6000', I remember reading that I should plan on a 3 phase adapative process that would take as much as 9 months to complete. This makes me give less weight to things like the 2…

Why would you need to show that? I don't see anything that requires blood oxygen levels to be significantly different to get from "people at high elevation have access to less oxygen" to "living in lower-oxygen environments creates the right conditions to see serotonin go down and dopamine go up". Even if oxygen levels are identical once you get to the blood stream, it can cause many changes further up the process.

You'd need to show it because for O2 levels to matter, it would need to be the O2 levels experienced by cells that are different. But because of the body's adaptive mechanisms, it is possible for cellular O2 availability to remain (relatively) constant despite living in a depleted O2 environment.

Your cells cannot measure environmental O2 levels - only what is available from the bloodstream. Ergo, if sufficient adaptation has taken place - and it may not have - then as far as the body is concerned, there is no depleted O2 environment.

Re: Positive association between altitude and suicide in U.S. counties

#172

Post by refulgentis »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #158
lp251 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you ever fully acclimate? After 3 years at 6000 ft I still had lower blood oxygen than at sea level. (per apple watch, so take that with a grain of salt)

I haven't measured my blood oxygen, alas. I've been here 4+ years now, and other than being 4 years older and just coming out of a sedentary 3 year period, I notice zero effects of living (and running, cycling, swimming, hiking) at altitude. Can't say any more than that really.

Hmmm, given that...it does seem to me the initial claim is likely to be true.

I know you said that it has to vary between multiple individuals at altitude, but it's unclear to me why.

Don't we just have to show some individuals don't ever get back up to the same blood oxygen levels?

Re: Positive association between altitude and suicide in U.S. counties

#173

Post by exclusiv »

Anecdotally, I've found mountain people to be much crazier than normal. The desert has high drug use and has crazies, but even desert people acknowledge the mountain people are more unpredictable and unhinged.

This may or may not be fair, I don't know, but from my experience, if I'm to theorize a generalization in conjunction with this study:

Poor education. Lack of steady jobs. Low ambition. They consider themselves self-reliant people even if they take government subsidies. Don't need to work much to maintain their lifestyle. Would prefer to get a higher hourly rate, not to extrapolate to have a nice income, but to be able to work like 20% of the year, be paid in cash and also take government benefits. Which is likely also driven by the lack of steady jobs that provide healthcare to be fair. Idle time and lack of structure in their lives leading to higher drug and alcohol usage. Financial and health stress. Leading to higher suicide rates.

Study mentions altitude itself and hypoxia and controlling for income. But one could have the same income in a lower altitude location and have MUCH better access to healthcare, quality of healthcare, and steadier/structured employment than the higher altitude people that take their life.

As with most things, I think it's a combination of factors. And the altitude itself seems to be one of them. Not only from the study's stated hypoxia, but it's a lot harder to work at altitude just like it is in the desert with the heat. When people don't have steady jobs and schedules, they have idle time, and along with other pressures and stress, bad things happen.

Re: Positive association between altitude and suicide in U.S. counties

#174

Post by CrimsonCape »

twobitshifter wrote: post #135
danesparza wrote: post #19

I don't want to come of as flippant, but I'm genuinely curious: Is there a correlation to how many stories the person's residence has as well? If they live on a 3rd story of an apartment, is there a higher suicide rate than the first floor of an apartment?

That’s actually a really interesting field of study https://buildingtheskyline.org/highrise-living/ High rises have their own associations with mental illness. I don’t know if anyone has ever looked at pure altitude as possible effect.

High-rise depression is caused by the architectural design. Rental apartments in a high rise are for-profit, and 99.9% of the time a developer is maximizing the rentable amount of square footage and minimizing the amount of non-rentable square footage. This eliminates all common spaces that might foster inter-personal interaction and relationships with your neighbors.

Anecdotally, a 1:5 relationship is about ideal, for every x5 700 square foot apartments, there should be 700 square feet of common space. Think 5 doors attached to one courtyard that itself is about the size of an apartment.

From a for-profit point of view, this is a waste of construction cost.

Re: Positive association between altitude and suicide in U.S. counties

#175

Post by mrguyorama »

kulahan wrote: post #170
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For that to be true, you'd need to establish that blood oxygen levels differ significantly across altitude adapted individuals, and I don't believe that this is the case. Also, when I first moved from Philadelphia to a village in New Mexico at 6000', I remember reading that I should plan on a 3 phase adapative process that would take as much as 9 months to complete. This makes me give less weight to things like the 2…

Why would you need to show that? I don't see anything that requires blood oxygen levels to be significantly different to get from "people at high elevation have access to less oxygen" to "living in lower-oxygen environments creates the right conditions to see serotonin go down and dopamine go up". Even if oxygen levels are identical once you get to the blood stream, it can cause many changes further up the process.

You are missing the fact that the human lungs are something like twice as effective and powerful as the "need" to be at sea level, and have plenty of room to handle less oxygen in the air. Second, the human body adapts quite well to living at higher altitudes, because it will compensate for the lower oxygen levels.

Same blood oxygen level as a sea level human means same quantity of oxygen getting to the brain.

>Even if oxygen levels are identical once you get to the blood stream, it can cause many changes further up the process.

What mechanism could possibly cause this? The brain is getting all the oxygen it needs.

Re: Positive association between altitude and suicide in U.S. counties

#176

Post by mrguyorama »

JohnDeHope wrote: post #150
jddj wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that warrants a citation

This makes me think. What if there was a database of conjectures. Each has an id number. The database could link to all sorts of media, scientific studies, etc. supporting or disputing each conjecture. Then you could just give the id number and folks would also get all the pro and con material they might like. Even things like "the earth is a sphere" could link to educational videos and whatnot. And even things like…

In the age of the internet, lack of knowledge about something is a choice. People who believe Obama is a lizard alien don't do so because they haven't seen the appropriate "educational" video, but because that's what confirms what they want to believe.

Re: Positive association between altitude and suicide in U.S. counties

#177

Post by RobRivera »

kulahan wrote: post #170
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For that to be true, you'd need to establish that blood oxygen levels differ significantly across altitude adapted individuals, and I don't believe that this is the case. Also, when I first moved from Philadelphia to a village in New Mexico at 6000', I remember reading that I should plan on a 3 phase adapative process that would take as much as 9 months to complete. This makes me give less weight to things like the 2…

Why would you need to show that? I don't see anything that requires blood oxygen levels to be significantly different to get from "people at high elevation have access to less oxygen" to "living in lower-oxygen environments creates the right conditions to see serotonin go down and dopamine go up". Even if oxygen levels are identical once you get to the blood stream, it can cause many changes further up the process.

its called scientific rigor

Re: Positive association between altitude and suicide in U.S. counties

#178

Post by mrguyorama »

thephyber wrote: post #167
callalex wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deeply toxic to human lungs.

Today I learned that ozone is typically found in the stratosphere (which I knew) but also at ground level due to chemical reactions.

And if you own an air purifier, likely in your room!

Re: Positive association between altitude and suicide in U.S. counties

#179

Post by mrguyorama »

what-no-tests wrote: post #109
imperio59 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that whole chemical imbalance theory was thoroughly debunked earlier this year as not being the cause of depression, just a marketing gimmick used to sell more anti depressants by pharma companies... "The serotonin theory of depression has been one of the most influential and extensively researched biological theories of the origins of depression. Our study shows that this view is not supported by scientific e…

THIS needs to be spread around much more broadly. [UPDATE]: Looks like I'm getting downvoted by people who cling to their meds. Try physical activity and adjusting your self-talk. Try having goals and making steady progress toward them. What you need doesn't come from a pill, it comes from living life.

>What you need doesn't come from a pill, it comes from living life.

Fuck off. Imagine telling someone with astigmatism that they don't need a physical modification and augmentation to their bodies, but rather "to live life", whatever that means.

Meanwhile, after decades of swearing I didn't need a pill, I didn't want a pill to "change" me, etc, I got on pills, and my life actually works. I rode a rollercoaster for the first time in decades the other day, zero butterflies in my stomach, zero panic or anxiety, zero inappropriate fear. I'm likely only alive today BECAUSE of medication.

The whole point behind how new medications are tested are that we often don't have a great understanding of HOW a medication works, but that doesn't matter, because it demonstrably works in some percentage of people, and for those that it doesn't work for, often another medication might.

So, with zero respect because you are actively harming people, Fuck right off.

Re: Positive association between altitude and suicide in U.S. counties

#180

Post by FollowingTheDao »

watersb wrote: post #120
FollowingTheDao wrote: post #67

Oh boy, this is a favorite topic of mine because I get psychosis over 7000 feet. And it is all about my genetics. I am a lowlander by heritage, a Sami from Finland, and I carry genetic changes in NOS1AP that lower my ability to make nitric oxide at altitude. But the other factor is polymorphisms in GCH1, a gene linked to altitude adaptation: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5460084/ See GCH1 is the enzyme…

Wow! Any correlation with blood pressure regulation?

Oh yes, for sure. Also immune regulation via NOS2.
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