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The elite's war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

okdoomer.io

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Re: The elite's war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems not that relevant to the subject.

You asked? So it was relevant as an answer to the question. But, agree, not relevant to the original story. Just a little. The original story was about 'elites'. In the US, any conversation on that subject gets wrapped up in different opinions on who the 'elite's are, and if they are Socialist. One side thinks the 'elite's are Socialist, the other side think the 'elite's are corporate CEO's. This thread digressed to…

>You asked?

About the republicans calling taxation socialism. Zero evidence of that.

Re: The elite's war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You asked? So it was relevant as an answer to the question. But, agree, not relevant to the original story. Just a little. The original story was about 'elites'. In the US, any conversation on that subject gets wrapped up in different opinions on who the 'elite's are, and if they are Socialist. One side thinks the 'elite's are Socialist, the other side think the 'elite's are corporate CEO's. This thread digressed to…

>You asked? About the republicans calling taxation socialism. Zero evidence of that.

US Libertarians are against taxation and government

They are Republicans.

https://www.lp.org/issues/taxes/

https://www.lp.org/news-press-releases-libertarian-party-don...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_as_theft

Re: The elite's war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#363
post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire article implied it. It is literally the subject of the article. From the article: >"It’s about real estate" >"Corporate landlords currently hold $1.2 trillion in loans on office towers all over the country" It is being a bit pedantic to argue around what a 'CRE Investor' IS. Who 'owns' versus who has a 'lease' since the 'lease' is still a debt obligation. And you don't have to be specifically a 'CRE Invest…

If you think statements like "It’s about real estate" are somehow a redefinition of a different term ("the elites") used elsewhere in the document to make it mean something no one else in the world thinks it means, then we have no business even talking to each other. Your opinion of how reading works is so different from mine that it results in us living in two different worlds. I'm sure I'm right when I say this col…

>> "the elites" to mean "a small subset of elites who have large interest in CRE prices"

That is exactly what is meant. I'm sorry if it really needs to be spelled out like leading a horse to water. It was the point of the entire article, even if there was not a specific sentence clearly equating a=b. There were links to other backing documents. Maybe she could have drawn the line a little more clearly, but it was a short piece, maybe she didn't think she needed to make it a big thesis.

For "elites". Is it "Marxist-Charged"? It is a little funny to be re-defining the term again, given that for 6 years Republicans have been using it as a derogatory term for "educated liberals", not for "Corporate America". Now all of a sudden, if someone uses the term "Elite" to refer to "Corporate America", now that makes them Marxist by besmirching "Corporate America"?

I do agree. It is hard to communicate in this day and age when words change meaning from month to month, and the Left/Right are working with different definitions.

Any definition of 'Elites', in any conversation gets wrapped up in different opinions on who the 'Elite's are. One side thinks the 'Elite's are Socialist, educated liberals, the other side think the 'Elite's are corporate CEO's.

Depending on your side, you get triggered in the opposite direction.

Re: The elite's war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#364
It's not the elites who are behind this - it's commercial real estate bankers who stand to lose their shirts, and city governments who are losing income tax revenue. Simply put, some people were making money off of the previous status quo and they'd like to get back to doing so. They don't give a fsck about workers or "quality of life" or any of that BS. They just want their money.

We're stupid if we let them win.

You've had a taste of freedom and flexibility - are you going to let them take it away so they can make money? Because, that's what this is actually all about.

Re: The elite's war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You asked? About the republicans calling taxation socialism. Zero evidence of that.

US Libertarians are against taxation and government They are Republicans. https://www.lp.org/issues/taxes/ https://www.lp.org/news-press-releases-libertarian-party-don ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_as_theft

>They are Republicans.

Then it should be trvial to link to a republucan publication/website/statemrent claiming the same thing.

To be honest I think you are just making stuff up.

Re: The elite's war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#366
post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think statements like "It’s about real estate" are somehow a redefinition of a different term ("the elites") used elsewhere in the document to make it mean something no one else in the world thinks it means, then we have no business even talking to each other. Your opinion of how reading works is so different from mine that it results in us living in two different worlds. I'm sure I'm right when I say this col…

>> "the elites" to mean "a small subset of elites who have large interest in CRE prices" That is exactly what is meant. I'm sorry if it really needs to be spelled out like leading a horse to water. It was the point of the entire article, even if there was not a specific sentence clearly equating a=b. There were links to other backing documents. Maybe she could have drawn the line a little more clearly, but it was a s…

> That is exactly what is meant.

I know you believe this and there's nothing I can do to change your mind. You do you, but nothing you say with your ridiculous leaps of logic and assumptions will change my choice to read it in the most direct and logical way.

Re: The elite's war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#367
post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "the elites" to mean "a small subset of elites who have large interest in CRE prices" That is exactly what is meant. I'm sorry if it really needs to be spelled out like leading a horse to water. It was the point of the entire article, even if there was not a specific sentence clearly equating a=b. There were links to other backing documents. Maybe she could have drawn the line a little more clearly, but it was a s…

> That is exactly what is meant. I know you believe this and there's nothing I can do to change your mind. You do you, but nothing you say with your ridiculous leaps of logic and assumptions will change my choice to read it in the most direct and logical way.

Sure

But don't think that your ultra-literal reading is more 'correct' for being literal.

When someone says it is a 'blue moon' this month, do you get upset when it isn't blue?

I think we both know you have an axe to grind, and are just as extremely biased in one direction as you think I am biased in the other direction.

Best wishes on becoming more self aware. The world needs it.

>>> "a Marxist-charged one like "the elites," most often used for the purpose of throwing shit in the fan of corporate America, rather than arguing genuine points."

(Actually, I'm beginning to suspect this is a Troll, hard to tell these days. Let me know if this was just a long joke.)

Re: The elite's war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US Libertarians are against taxation and government They are Republicans. https://www.lp.org/issues/taxes/ https://www.lp.org/news-press-releases-libertarian-party-don ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_as_theft

>They are Republicans. Then it should be trvial to link to a republucan publication/website/statemrent claiming the same thing. To be honest I think you are just making stuff up.

Not my job to educate.

I started searching and had dozen hits, and was like "wait, why do I have to search for this person, this is a troll at this point".

It has been in debates, articles, arguments. Like non-stop for 6 years. It was in the Republican debates. You go look it up.

Seems like being extra pedantic now , "well, they didn't mean it, those other links don't count, show me the official Republican documentation".

Re: The elite's war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#369
post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is an excellent example. Comparing absolute numbers isn't fair to China, but look at the percentage of the population that starved in each country during those relative time periods.

I just don't think any of that is related to the economic system. It's pretty clearly the result of China having a lot more subsistence farmers when they industrialized.

But it is, at least their political system. But those are pretty intertwined in China, especially in that period.

They imported Lysenkoism from the soviets (who also had massive famines while implementing it).

Which is one of the reasons it's a bad idea to give control of the means of production to the politicians. There are a lot of things that sound good to a politician, but are a bad idea in practice.

Re: The elite's war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#370
post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A straightforward implication is that China is capitalist. Which isn't necessarily wrong But it is wrong. The Chinese government has demonstrated repeatedly that they are the de facto owners of, effectively, all of the wealth in the country. Meaningful ownership isn't a legal status, it's the power to do... well... whatever you want with the thing in question. Which I suppose puts ownership (and thus also capitalis…

> The Chinese government has demonstrated repeatedly that they are the de facto owners of, effectively, all of the wealth in the country... Which I suppose puts ownership (and thus also capitalism) on a spectrum and makes it all messy, but all real life things are messy. There is plenty of this messiness in the US as well. Which puts the judgement solidly in "I know it when I see it" territory, leaving that definitio…

> This is also bordering on giving capitalism credit for the rule of law.

I'd rather go the other way, and give rule of law credit for capitalism. Probably one of its better effects. Capitalism requires an external neutral enforcer (for varying degrees of neutrality, but generally more neutral is better) to enforce property rights. Otherwise you end up with capital owners that need their own security forces, which morph into de facto states (see medieval feudal lords for an example). This state control of the means of production may work well on a 5-10 year period occasionally, but it's disastrous in the long term.

> considering China as capitalist would seem to make for more productive analysis

I think you can look at them in that lens post Deng or so (and they've had significantly fewer famines since then). Although with the recent consolidation of power, I'm not sure if the lens of totalitarianism might yield a better light. The union of political, military, and economic power completely within a single institution has certain properties that don't hold true for any single one of those.

> ...rather due to specific forms of corruption that seem like "private" ownership run amok and are thus reasonable to pin on capitalism itself.

Might I ask you to elaborate on this? Because the failures I see in China tend to pattern match more towards the patronage networks you see crop up in public systems. But I'll admit to not having a perfect understanding of China, and am willing to hear a case be made.

> I already mentioned imaginary property, which is a form of ownership/capital invented out of whole cloth, under the idea that its better to have more forms of ownership rather than unowned commons.

I'll give you this one. Intellectual property is dumb, as there's no scarcity requiring an efficient distribution of goods. You can argue private ownership of (non-intellectual) property is an evil, but I would argue that it is a necessary one (on the level of taxation). And one we get quite a bit of benefit from.

> There are also our overfinancialized money markets, which have paperclip maximized their way to creating financial assets from of any future rent stream they can. This is backed up by governmental help from the federal reserve supplying an endless stream of money for creating said financial instruments, such that the first-order asset ownership of most of society hardly matters in the larger economic picture.

So, I mean... let them fail. They've been trying to fail since the 80s or so with the bond crisis back then, and we keep propping them up. I'm gonna be honest, blaming capitalism for the actions of politicians feels like an unfair slight. Propping up ventures well past their point of usefulness because of political necessity is one of the hallmarks of a politically owned system, not a privately owned one. One that has happened over and over (see the soviet army's capture of the USSR's budget, or Lysenkoism).

You could say that the capitalists pressure the politicians, which is fair on some level, but seems like a symptom of a political system corruption. I would argue that as long as you have that, none of your economic systems are going to do what you want, though I will still argue that being as capitalistic as possible will, generally, still perform the best.

> But I'm also sympathetic to the argument that mass accumulations of capital will inevitably change the rules of the game to benefit themselves

This is probably the best argument here. Nobody, least of all me, argues that capitalists are supremely ethical. In fact amorality is generally one of the big points of it. There does need to be some sort of external arbiter.

I guess, the general avenue of my counter-argument is that it works well. Sure, it has downsides, but we have billions of lives riding on this. Show me a system that has a decently scaled example of working better.

> why should we put the philosophical focus on capital

Because capital + labor is how you make stuff, and we need a bunch of stuff made. And since the industrial revolution the majority of the advancement has been from the refining of capital rather than throwing more labor at the issue.

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