A book on software engineering but totally missing how decisions are made around what features to build, what bugs to fix. I would have love to read more on how Google engineers prioritise work, what makes them more creative in terms of building innovative features and products. Also would have love to read how UI engineering is done while working with designers etc.
Software Engineering at Google (2020)
81–90 of 352 posts
Re: Software Engineering at Google (2020)
#82If this document is intended as a how-google-does-it for applicability outside of Google, then the leadership section (Ch9) should include a heavy dose of your-mileage-may-vary. It is very good advice, but requires great cultural and executive support.
All the adages listed here make perfect sense, but they don't succeed in a vacuum. Servant leadership is great, until individuals disagree with product strategy and priorities. Addressing low performers is great, until a company's HR policies make doing so onerous.
I could go on, but there are often many things outside of your control as a leader that directly affect your capability to manage. It's all part of the job and something to account for, but set your expectations accordingly.
Re: Software Engineering at Google (2020)
#83Cool. Could someone, maybe an ex-googler, comment on which parts of these work well and which don't? A lot of other companies get into trouble trying to cargo-cult what Google does when they are operating in very different environments wherein those practices aren't optimal. E.g. different levels of scale. Additionally, critics of Google may point out that their engineering culture may not be great on its own terms -…
In my ex-Google experience, here are the stages of denial about something that Google does which is good but the industry doesn't yet embrace. Stage 1: "We're not Google, we don't need [[whatever]]"; Stage 2: Foreseeable disaster for which [[whatever]] was intended to address happens; Stage 3: Giant circus of P0/SEV0 action items while everyone assiduously ignores the [[whatever]]; Stage 4: Quiet accretion, over seve…
Off-topic for this thread, but one of the most poignant quips I remember about Google culture was that the performance-review process was really good at rewarding hard, challenging work that didn't produce much value and not very good at recognizing work that produced lots of value but was not astoundingly difficult. I think you were the one who first noted this.
Re: Software Engineering at Google (2020)
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is a common meme, but it depends how you define "product". There are companies with millions in VC backing that would just be a feature on a Google (or other big tech company) product as most people define them. I would argue that taking a product from 100m to 1bn users is a whole new level of success, and that has been done multiple times in the last decade.
Why should scaling matter? I thought google tried to solve problems regardless of scale? Or maybe youre commending google for its ability to more effectively commodify datacenter labour in the past decade?
I don't think we can expect businesses to solve problems without any business upside. I don't hold that against any company. That means needing some amount of scale in order to justify the work and opportunity cost.
Re: Software Engineering at Google (2020)
#85"As far as this outsider can tell, the systems and processes for writing code at Google must be among the best in the world, given both the scale of the company and how often people sing their praises." Is this really the case? In high school I sure thought Google was a magical software heaven us mortals could but dream of working for, but now (and increasingly as of late) I'm strongly under the impression that 20 ye…
Google search was 1998. Google Maps was 2005. Gmail was 2004. Android was 2008. Youtube was 2005. Chrome was 2008. Docs was 2006. Translate was 2006. Yet in the last decade, they really haven't had many successes (perhaps with the exception of Google Photos - 2015) One would imagine that with nearly 200,000 employees at least one of them would have a good enough idea for a new product people like. But management and…
If you compare the Android from 2008 and the Android from 2023 then you'd soon agree that within these 15 years, the whole thing was re-invented multiple times.
And I'm not talking the UX, which has already changed substantially, but I mean the underpinnings.
Re: Software Engineering at Google (2020)
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
Apple has undergone a similar ossification. I think it's just something that happens to companies that get a certain size. The Process becomes more important than the Product. When I was younger, I wanted so badly, to work at Apple. A few years ago, they actually approached me, and I found out that the culture seems to have drastically changed. They ended up not wanting me anyway, so maybe it's just sour grapes, on m…
Last I talked to people about Apple's internal tooling, it was still pretty fragmented between different organizations. I was told about e.g. multiple internal CI/build systems because one org didn't want to rely on the other, so they both built their own little software stacks. That's a bit different than what I've heard from meta/google/amazon who seem to be more open to running centralized internal services
Amazon famously mandated such internal services at one point:
https://gist.github.com/chitchcock/1281611
This was rather a long time ago now so I wouldn't be surprised if things have changed since then, though having never worked at Amazon I wouldn't know one way or the other.
Re: Software Engineering at Google (2020)
#87How have layoffs impact group psychological safety?
I think they hit pretty hard. I remember some hardcore arguments with buddies that work at google when I told them that based on google's behavior layoffs are going to happen (this was 3-6 months before google did their first layoffs in history). I was brushed off with "google would not do that" and "our culture us different". It was heartbreaking to hear how their view on google transformed after layoffs did happen.
Re: Software Engineering at Google (2020)
#88"As far as this outsider can tell, the systems and processes for writing code at Google must be among the best in the world, given both the scale of the company and how often people sing their praises." Is this really the case? In high school I sure thought Google was a magical software heaven us mortals could but dream of working for, but now (and increasingly as of late) I'm strongly under the impression that 20 ye…
> I'm strongly under the impression that 20 years ago they discovered unobtanium in the form of a very under-served search and ads market, they plopped down camp on top of it and turned it into a giant money firehose In 2010 when I interned there, one of my mentors said something to me that stuck with me: "Google found a hose that money pours out of, and it's name is 'online advertising'. All we do is optimize that h…
Yes and just like all tech companies.. Google steals from smaller companies to the dreamers they inspired to invent and create.
Sonos: https://www.theverge.com/2023/5/26/23739273/google-sonos-sma...
A MIT student: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18566929
I met them (they were horribly unprofessional) in 2013 around time Sonos did to discuss my audio syncing tech. Best to steal tech then bother investing into R&D. Quickest way to make more money .. steal .. spend less and make more.
Re: Software Engineering at Google (2020)
#89"As far as this outsider can tell, the systems and processes for writing code at Google must be among the best in the world, given both the scale of the company and how often people sing their praises." Is this really the case? In high school I sure thought Google was a magical software heaven us mortals could but dream of working for, but now (and increasingly as of late) I'm strongly under the impression that 20 ye…
Apple has undergone a similar ossification. I think it's just something that happens to companies that get a certain size. The Process becomes more important than the Product. When I was younger, I wanted so badly, to work at Apple. A few years ago, they actually approached me, and I found out that the culture seems to have drastically changed. They ended up not wanting me anyway, so maybe it's just sour grapes, on m…
> Apple has undergone a similar ossification.
> I think it's just something that happens to companies that get a certain size. The Process becomes more important than the Product.
Why change it if it's working well? Keep doing what you are good at, keep being the best in the world/market at this, and the customers will reward you.
I seriously don't understand the common theme here in these threads saying that Google is basically stagnating. Why do they need to churn out a major new product every other year to stay relevant? They continuously re-vamp their entire stack, their data centers, their networks. Nothing ever stays as it is. As a user I actually find that things change too much. (But I'm not what counts, it's ad revenue that counts..)
Re: Software Engineering at Google (2020)
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I don't understand your argument - why does the lack of a diversified business have imply a lack of quality for systems and processes for writing code? That wasn't the argument. The argument was simply that having a profitable monopoly doesn't imply the presence of quality.
How did they achieve monopoly if it weren't for the quality?
The quality of what exactly?
Google's massive internal processes and systems are the result of having already been huge for many years. Google needed the time and resources to build them up. They're not the cause of Google's becoming huge in the first place.
Of course the quality of Google's external search results helped Google achieve a monopoly. Ironically, many people say that Google's search results have been getting worse, and I'd have to agree with that sentiment.
See also the list of mergers and acquisitions by Alphabet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mergers_and_acquisitio...