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Positive association between altitude and suicide in U.S. counties

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

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Re: Positive association between altitude and suicide in U.S. counties

#61

Post by Tomte »

lm28469 wrote: post #57
cykotic wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We live in a world of imperfect knowledge. We look for patterns to try to determine cause/effect. The beginning process for this is to point out correlations and then further investigate. It’s not possible to account for all variables when it comes to things like suicide. It is possible and worthwhile to try to study the phenomenon as best we can.

These thing end up on wikipedia and in dubious news sites as "Suicide is caused by high altitude", so yes it does matter a lot actually. It's poor science at best, if you can't control variables then the whole thing is next to useless, which happens a lot these days. At the end you have correlations, not causations

You never get causation from statistical procedures, regardless how well you control for variables.

You'll always have to augment statistical associations with further knowledge of the world, so you can get to causes.

Re: Positive association between altitude and suicide in U.S. counties

#62

Post by chongli »

nonameiguess wrote: post #45

The figure 1 makes it look like an awful lot like there is no pattern at all for the vast majority of counties, and then the few with the very highest suicide rates are all very high altitude. They also mention this, but I'm not sure country is a great way to measure this. Death Valley and Mt Whitney, the lowest and highest altitude points in the contiguous states, are in the same county. Might also want to remove Ve…

You could probably control for the Vegas issue by excluding suicides of non-residents, though I don’t know if that information is tracked or not. If that information is not tracked then it’s really useless!

Re: Positive association between altitude and suicide in U.S. counties

#63

Post by cykotic »

lm28469 wrote: post #57
cykotic wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We live in a world of imperfect knowledge. We look for patterns to try to determine cause/effect. The beginning process for this is to point out correlations and then further investigate. It’s not possible to account for all variables when it comes to things like suicide. It is possible and worthwhile to try to study the phenomenon as best we can.

These thing end up on wikipedia and in dubious news sites as "Suicide is caused by high altitude", so yes it does matter a lot actually. It's poor science at best, if you can't control variables then the whole thing is next to useless, which happens a lot these days. At the end you have correlations, not causations

If we did science as you seem to think it should be done then very little progress will be made. You should read up on the history of progress in neuroscience. Metaphorically speaking; when you walk into a dark room one has to reach out and try to make sense of things before stumbling upon where the lamp is.

Re: Positive association between altitude and suicide in U.S. counties

#66

Post by [deleted] »

brigadier132 wrote: post #58
mrosett wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, I would assume generally positive. The mountain west gets more sun than the northeast or northwest.

I would assume that higher altitudes would have more intense winters that then result in people staying indoors and isolated for longer periods of time? I would guess that altitude and longitude are not correlated globally (at least I don't know why they would be) but in the US I generally associate altitude with snow.

[deleted]

Re: Positive association between altitude and suicide in U.S. counties

#67

Post by FollowingTheDao »

Oh boy, this is a favorite topic of mine because I get psychosis over 7000 feet.

And it is all about my genetics. I am a lowlander by heritage, a Sami from Finland, and I carry genetic changes in NOS1AP that lower my ability to make nitric oxide at altitude. But the other factor is polymorphisms in GCH1, a gene linked to altitude adaptation:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5460084/

See GCH1 is the enzyme critically needed to make something called tetrahjydrobiopterin (BH4), and BH4 last at the center of the creation of all the catecholamines, like dopamine and serotonin, but also Nitric Oxide.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Fig-1-Tetrahydrobiopteri...

They make a drug called Kuvan which is a BH4 analogue but they only sell it in the EU because they want those of use with mental illness in the U.S. to suffer.

But zinc will increase the activity of GCH1 and alleviate many of these issues for me.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00062...

It has nothing to do with low oxygen, but rather low catecholamines.

Re: Positive association between altitude and suicide in U.S. counties

#68

Post by misja111 »

brigadier132 wrote: post #58
mrosett wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, I would assume generally positive. The mountain west gets more sun than the northeast or northwest.

I would assume that higher altitudes would have more intense winters that then result in people staying indoors and isolated for longer periods of time? I would guess that altitude and longitude are not correlated globally (at least I don't know why they would be) but in the US I generally associate altitude with snow.

Countries like Finland and Iceland are consistently in the top 5 of happiest countries in the world. Of course that has many non-related reasons, but the effect of intense winters can't be too bad.

Re: Positive association between altitude and suicide in U.S. counties

#69

Post by foxyv »

lm28469 wrote: post #30
user_7832 wrote: post #13

From the abstract: > Controlling for percent of age >50 yr, percent male, percent white, median household income, and population density of each county, the higher-altitude counties had significantly higher suicide rates than the lower-altitude counties. Similar findings were observed for both firearm-related suicides (59% of suicides) and nonfirearm-related suicides. So (median) income has been considered, in case a…

Which is dumb, what matters is the income of the person who commits suicide, not the median income of their county

This isn't too far off base. High levels of inequality lead to depression and anxiety. It isn't a great feeling to almost get hit by Maseratis every other day walking to the grocery store when you can barely afford the rice and beans you eat because your rent is 75% of your income.

Re: Positive association between altitude and suicide in U.S. counties

#70

Post by FollowingTheDao »

the_economist wrote: post #24

High altitude is also associated with longevity, reduced heart disease, and more efficient mitochondria.

This is why it is important to take genetics into account when looking at these studies.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5460084/

Not all of us were meant to live at higher altitudes.

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