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Veilid is an open-source, P2P, mobile-first, networked application framework

veilid.com

11–20 of 75 posts

Re: Veilid is an open-source, P2P, mobile-first, networked application framework

#11
post #5

The choice of Cap'n Proto seems odd to me https://veilid.com/framework/rpc It is an interesting project, but I'm sceptical. Veilid appears to be focused on their implementation in Rust, not so much as reference implementation but as the thing itself. I was hoping for a W3C like definition of a standard, not "bound" to their implementation or Cap'n Proto.

Cap'n'proto is very well designed and actually has multiple implementations. It also helps writing bindings for all kinds of languages that may want to call Veilid APIs.

I don't think that defining yet another serialization format would buy anything.

Re: Veilid is an open-source, P2P, mobile-first, networked application framework

#12
post #5

The choice of Cap'n Proto seems odd to me https://veilid.com/framework/rpc It is an interesting project, but I'm sceptical. Veilid appears to be focused on their implementation in Rust, not so much as reference implementation but as the thing itself. I was hoping for a W3C like definition of a standard, not "bound" to their implementation or Cap'n Proto.

True. On the other hand, gnunet tried the standards-based approach with binary specifications, as of yet with basically no adoption. One main problem I see that is very hard to integrate any other language or framework. If veilid now goes for trivially generatable language bindings, maybe they have more luck and this is what's needed to get something like this off the ground?

Re: Veilid is an open-source, P2P, mobile-first, networked application framework

#14
post #4

I'm curious how this will deal with carrier grade firewalls and NATs. I can't run torrent client on my phone for this reason and I have hard time seeing how anything P2P is going to work on user hostile ISPs

Probably the way syncthing deals with NAT. I actually suggested Syncthing team to implement something like this few months back but they were not interested.

Do you gave a link to the suggestion? (If it's public)

Re: Veilid is an open-source, P2P, mobile-first, networked application framework

#16
Any API accessible easily from Javascript client side?

The trend seems going towards web-browser local-first applications.

So an application on the client side, once was loaded the site's domain delivering the code, can work offline without network access, and synchronize later with its "associated peers/nodes/servers" (if they decide to).

Though wasm exists, it would be nice to be able to have a "high level API" so any user (not just technical) can become part of the federated protocol, and contribute to its rich content.

Re: Veilid is an open-source, P2P, mobile-first, networked application framework

#17

I've never seen an open source project survive hosting on gitlab. It is on its own island.

Maybe sadly true, the social network effect. But through distribution (packages etc.), that can be very untrue, and anyways people who really want to meaningfully contribute will find their ways (and probably understand the benefits of free/open-software).

Re: Veilid is an open-source, P2P, mobile-first, networked application framework

#18
I saw this talk at DEFCON. It seems to combine ideas from IPFS, BitTorrent magnet links, Tor, and things like scuttlebutt. There was a very strong focus on privacy including for metadata.

The biggest weaknesses I saw were around DOS attack resistance, which I did not see addressed. There were good approaches for privacy and security but what if someone with resources (botnet or money) wants to just burn the network down?

Completely pure P2P systems are hard to protect against Sybil attacks whose goal is simply to degrade service. Just launch a ton of bots, have them act normal for a while, then have them start being tar pits or misbehaving in ways that are carefully designed to maximize errors and latency. Then have them randomly pretend to be normal for a while, toggling good/evil to blend in as much as possible.

Combined with strong privacy how do you identify and remove these? The alternative is to design a protocol so bulletproof that there is no viable DOS attack, or use tokenization to impose a high cost on such attacks. Of course the latter leads down the road to all the toxic craziness of the cryptocurrency ecosystem. Add a token and now you have a vector for pump and dump schemes even if you didn’t intend it as that.

I can think of many reasons someone might launch such an attack from troll wars all the way to nation states trying to kill comm vectors for espionage or uprisings.

All protocols really have to be designed as if your client is the defense department and they will be used in a war zone… because the Internet is a war zone.

Re: Veilid is an open-source, P2P, mobile-first, networked application framework

#19
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably the way syncthing deals with NAT. I actually suggested Syncthing team to implement something like this few months back but they were not interested.

Do you gave a link to the suggestion? (If it's public)

It's buried in closed issues of Syncthing. This was quite some time back maybe over a year ago.

Re: Veilid is an open-source, P2P, mobile-first, networked application framework

#20

I've never seen an open source project survive hosting on gitlab. It is on its own island.

There are comparatively a lot less than github but they do exist.

Some examples of successful project using gitlab.com: Wireshark, QEMU, Inkscape, F-Droid, Aurora, Commento, Kicad, Remmina, tortoise-git...

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