Live data from Hacker News

‘I've got nothing to hide’ and other misunderstandings of privacy (2007)

papers.ssrn.com

161–170 of 293 posts

Re: ‘I've got nothing to hide’ and other misunderstandings of privacy (2007)

#161

The problem with the "I've got nothing to hide" argument is it's not "you" who decides what is "right" or "wrong". The entity doing the "spying" determines what is right or wrong. "You" might think "x" is ok, however the "spying" entity may have the opposite view. And it is the "spying" entity's opinion that matters, not yours, because it always them that have the power and authority in determining what is "right" or…

Would you agree murder is "wrong" and bad actors should be able to hide their culpability?

You're asking whether the ends justify the means; you should think about that yourself. Also, it's a slippery slope, and the end result of that has been philosophised about in media like 1984, where people lost the privacy of their own home, or Minority Report, where people lost the privacy of their own mind.

Re: ‘I've got nothing to hide’ and other misunderstandings of privacy (2007)

#162

The problem with the "I've got nothing to hide" argument is it's not "you" who decides what is "right" or "wrong". The entity doing the "spying" determines what is right or wrong. "You" might think "x" is ok, however the "spying" entity may have the opposite view. And it is the "spying" entity's opinion that matters, not yours, because it always them that have the power and authority in determining what is "right" or…

The problem with your point is it misses the ACTUAL meaning of "I've got nothing to hide". What it actually means is "I'm more average and less likely to be targeted than you". Or "I have less to fear that you, and I'm more worried about you or think I have more to gain from non-averages people being persecuted, than I have to lose from it being used against normies like me".

Re: ‘I've got nothing to hide’ and other misunderstandings of privacy (2007)

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The police aren't the government, The police is the dog of the government. What difference does it make to you if the dog or the master attacks you?

I understand that in the simplest way this is true, and I am sure it is very clever, poetic and pithy. But this is not how it works in principle or in practice in the UK. The police work on behalf of the people, not the government. When government manages to suborn the police in even a small way it is very much noticed. It’s difficult for people outside the UK to see this, I suppose, but our experience with this is t…

I like that officers in the UK are unarmed. I'm sure there are other distinct differences in how the UK does policing from other countries that are worth pointing out that make a meaningful difference.

But every democratic country is operating on the principal that the police work on behalf of the people, and has mechanisms in place that are supposed to ensure that this is the case. The government works on behalf of and with the consent of the people too! When you get sent to prison for an insult on social media, it's all done in the name of (some of) your fellow citizens.

Much of this is about individual freedom vs the oppression of the collective. The operators who are tasked to enforce the collective's norms have personal decision making power, and power invariably corrupts.

> you have to be consciously right up in their faces to cause such an aberration.

What does this mean? That they are personally vindictive? That acting legally but in a way that is annoying to an officer should get me arrested?

Re: ‘I've got nothing to hide’ and other misunderstandings of privacy (2007)

#164
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree with this. I live in the UK and when I raise concerns about government surveillance here people often say, "I've got nothing to hide". I learnt of a case just this week where a guy on Reddit left a slightly controversial comment and ended up being charged with hate speech, lost his job and received hate abuse online for his opinion. It was kinda crazy because "all" he said was that didn't care abou…

For context, I'm generally sympathetic to the "I've got nothing to hide" people I find your example illustrates the point . The UK has insane libel laws The sane solution would be to address these laws, not to create mechanisms for people to arbitrarily evade laws A lot of pro privacy arguments seem to boil down to "well we should make it a bit easier for people to break the law, cus maybe the laws are just bad". Thi…

I think we need both. We need clearer and more just laws governing free speech, and we need the right to the protection of our private speech.

Re: ‘I've got nothing to hide’ and other misunderstandings of privacy (2007)

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this notion that the UK is a police state quite hilarious. Ours is not the country where the police bring guns to seemingly every minor dispute and fairly often draw them. Ours is not the country where police kill you for resisting arrest, stand by while your kids are murdered in a school, or seize your money out on border roads without needing cause. Ours is not the country with a toxic plea bargaining system…

If its not a police state why do you need widespread videocamera surveillance? Seems like you have an arbitrary definition of what a police state should be. If the police just needs to take interest in you to find something to jail you because you are breaking hundreds of laws everyday anyway, this is a police state.

> If the police just needs to take interest in you to find something to jail you because you are breaking hundreds of laws everyday anyway, this is a police state.

Is it still a police state if you are breaking three laws every day?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/...

Re: ‘I've got nothing to hide’ and other misunderstandings of privacy (2007)

#166
post #40

Posted this three years ago, but its still relevant: My nothing to hide argument; Nothing to hide is an incomplete sentence. Nothing to hide from who? Surely you want to hide your children from abusers and predators? Don't you want to hide your banking details from con artists and fraudsters? Your identity from identity thieves.. Your location from burglars, your car keys from car thieves or your blood type from rich…

A murderer would like to hide their location history from civil justice authorities. We often argue the cons but not the pros of being able to trace history. A lot of ongoing evidence is based on timestamped written communication. Including for the 1/6 indictment, here you could argue what constitutes as "right" or "wrong".

A murderer can leave his phone at home. Meanwhile some data broker will sell some random person's, who just happened to be nearby, location history to the cops.

Re: ‘I've got nothing to hide’ and other misunderstandings of privacy (2007)

#167
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree with this. I live in the UK and when I raise concerns about government surveillance here people often say, "I've got nothing to hide". I learnt of a case just this week where a guy on Reddit left a slightly controversial comment and ended up being charged with hate speech, lost his job and received hate abuse online for his opinion. It was kinda crazy because "all" he said was that didn't care abou…

For context, I'm generally sympathetic to the "I've got nothing to hide" people I find your example illustrates the point . The UK has insane libel laws The sane solution would be to address these laws, not to create mechanisms for people to arbitrarily evade laws A lot of pro privacy arguments seem to boil down to "well we should make it a bit easier for people to break the law, cus maybe the laws are just bad". Thi…

It doesn't sound like libel/defemtation were involved in either case. Sounds like they were treated as criminal matters.

Re: ‘I've got nothing to hide’ and other misunderstandings of privacy (2007)

#168

The problem with the "I've got nothing to hide" argument is it's not "you" who decides what is "right" or "wrong". The entity doing the "spying" determines what is right or wrong. "You" might think "x" is ok, however the "spying" entity may have the opposite view. And it is the "spying" entity's opinion that matters, not yours, because it always them that have the power and authority in determining what is "right" or…

This is not the only problem. By giving up too much information, one also endangers the privacy of others. Ones own actions affect others. Those others can be journalists for example. I don't think I need to provide a list of all countries, where being a journalist can be a threat to ones own life.

Re: ‘I've got nothing to hide’ and other misunderstandings of privacy (2007)

#169
For a piece that goes deep into the nuances of terminology I feel it is missing substantial broader context relevant for the digital privacy debate: Digital privacy is not a peculiarly US need, nor is it confined to the citizen-state information flows.

Social organization in modern times (as seen across the planet) has created three "attractors" through which human agency primarily expresses itself: the individual/household, the (large) commercial entity and the state in its various forms. Of-course only the first type is "real", corporations and governments are legal abstractions representing the interests of various subsets of individuals. Further, the state, despite being a virtual construct, usually has ultimate power to enforce the will of whichever subset it represents.

The dramatic challenge of digital privacy is that it applies to every possible pair (e.g. person-to-person, state-to-corporate, corporate-to-corporate, state-to-state etc.) and in all possible governance circumstances (e.g. failed state, captured (oligarchic) state, warring states etc.) not just conditioning on benign scenarios.

Discussing digital privacy and rational, human-centric designs of digital society cannot ignore these interconnected elements. E.g. corporate surveillance and state surveillance are obviously deeply linked. Social technologies (of which digital information technology is part of) should aim to remove the likelihood and severity of human-inflicted disasters. 16 years after this piece and 7 years after Shoshana Zuboff's Surveillance Capitalism we are nowhere close to a more serious discussion (let alone action) about the kind of digital societies we are drifting into and what kind of risks are brewing.

The control of digital information flow concerning individuals and groups of individuals is at the very center of societal organization. The challenge is not just generational, its epochal. And it is getting worse, with every piece of code that interjects itself in these information flows.

Our era is crying out for exceptional intellectual and moral leadership that will construct the canvas on which a good digital society can thrive. Unfortunately, for now at least, not many are listening.

Re: ‘I've got nothing to hide’ and other misunderstandings of privacy (2007)

#170

"I've got nothing to hide." Cool, then you're fine with me putting a webcam in your bathroom facing your toilet to watch everything you do. Oh wait, it turns out that privacy has intrinsic value.

Herein we find a concise and accurate assessment of the business model of reality TV!
Post reply on HN