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The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

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Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#501

Post by lossolo »

randomdata wrote: post #499
lossolo wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And to be sure, one can negotiate at every turn to stay on top of that, but that's not terribly efficient for long-term engagements, so workers usually seek a long-standing agreement and renegotiate only as needed, like the Louis Vuitton workers did as discussed earlier. Yes, long standing agreements can provide stability for both workers and employers. However, the ability to renegotiate and advocate for fair wage…

> It's about acknowledging that economic disparities and systemic challenges can limit the bargaining power of certain individuals, making it difficult for them to negotiate for fair wages and better working conditions. It is never difficult to negotiate a fair wage. Tricking someone into paying an unfair wage, where you see greater value than you give back in return, is a lot harder. But that questions: Have you act…

Ah, the same old rhetoric of denying economic disparities and systemic challenges that clearly impact workers bargaining power. You seem so eager to downplay the struggles faced by certain individuals, but let's not pretend negotiating a fair wage is a walk in the park.

Sure, you keep harping on about not tricking someone into accepting an unfair wage, but the reality is far from your idealistic view. Many workers, especially those facing economic vulnerabilities, have no choice but to accept whatever is offered, even if it falls short of fair compensation. And don't give me that "transaction never takes place" nonsense, exploitative agreements happen all the time, whether you care to acknowledge it or not. And don't use words like NEVER and FUNDAMENTALLY, unless you think that labor relation between slave and master in slavery period was a fair transaction, do you?

As for your dismissive attitude towards the importance of the labor market's representation of resource allocation, it just shows your lack of understanding. While it might not fit neatly into your narrow worldview, it's crucial to recognize the market's influence on labor value and the allocation of resources. Don't believe me? Here, educate yourself by reading these two reports from OECD and ILO with data and sources to research:

https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---ed_norm/---relco...

https://one.oecd.org/document/DAF/COMP/WD(2019)43/en/pdf

Things like economic disparities and systemic challenges in context of labor that I mentioned so many times and that you dismissed are discussed there and supported by data.

And don't even get me started on your skewed perception of scarcity. Yes, supply and demand play a role, but that doesn't negate the fact that unfair practices can still arise, leaving workers struggling while companies rake in massive profits. But I guess it's too much for you to grasp that concept.

You keep going in circles, pointing fingers at the initial comment as if it's some holy truth. Well, newsflash: discussions evolve, and we're addressing a broader issue here. If you can't keep up and insist on your one-track mind, then by all means, spare us your pointless circles and let those who are genuinely interested in understanding the complexities have a meaningful conversation.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#502

Post by fragmede »

phpisthebest wrote: post #272
alisonatwork wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's important to note that the good old days of a working man being able to support a family of five was only true for a brief period of history in a handful of elite countries. In most of the world, and for most of human history, it hasn't been the case that any single person working 40 hours a week could provide a luxurious lifestyle for a large family. While some lament the loss of this golden age their g…

All of that is true, even in the US. It is a false narrative that the "middle class is collapsing" in the US There is a very narrow band, and very specific regions in the US where that is true unfortunately for the the rest of us the people and regions where this is the reality those people hold outsized control over the media, and government so it gives the appearance it is a universal reality. The World Is Becoming…

What Antony Davies fails to account for is the rising cost of housing, and a college education, and he compares us to 100 years ago, which is a nice round number, but the living standard I want to revisit is the 1950's, minus the out-of-control racism and sexism and abuse. By that time electricity was ubiquitous, washing machines were prevalent, people had cars, and college and housing was still affordable for the middle class. By the 1960's, central air condition was being designed into homes.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#503

Post by Turskarama »

SideQuark wrote: post #480
Turskarama wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>housing prices, across all houses, not the cherry picked most expensive subset you picked, when adjusted correctly, have been pretty flat. Care to address that? >median home prices since 1950, inflation adjusted, have not even doubled since 1950 "Not even doubled" = basically flat. Sure buddy. The single biggest purchase most people will ever make, let's call an 80% increase a rounding error. >No wonder you believe…

> Sure buddy. The single biggest purchase most people will ever make, let's call an 80% increase a rounding error. They're now choosing to buy a > 200% size home. And this is because inflation adjusted median household income has gone up, tada! you guessed it! Over 200%! And here's some real number voodoo for you - put inflation adjusted median income and median house size over time into Excel and look at the correla…

>And this is because inflation adjusted median household income has gone up, tada! you guessed it! Over 200%!

Inflation adjusted median income has gone up over 200%... what do you think inflation is?

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#504

Post by nroms »

wak90 wrote: post #474
nroms wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, like it or not Atlas Shrugged remains one of the most influential novels of all time

I didn't say it wasn't. I'm saying calling an anarchist someone out of the "objectivist" manifesto is especially insulting.

It wouldn't be considered an insult from those many who liked the book, is my meaning. Just that the parent didn't seem to me to be especially insulting

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#505

Post by wak90 »

nroms wrote: post #504
wak90 wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say it wasn't. I'm saying calling an anarchist someone out of the "objectivist" manifesto is especially insulting.

It wouldn't be considered an insult from those many who liked the book, is my meaning. Just that the parent didn't seem to me to be especially insulting

This is going to sound insulting and it is not meant to be insulting.

Your comment shows a fundamental misunderstanding of anarchism and Rand. Her philosophy is particularly odious to people on the left and is especially incompatible with anarchist political philosophy. The idea that there are special super intelligent humans who should be placed at the top of society's hierarchy and be given free range to make any and all decisions for those lower on the hierarchy is outright rejected as baseline anarchist political thought.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#506

Post by jiveturkey »

andruby wrote: post #441
jiveturkey wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GDP != salary. https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/average-salary-by-ag... median wage at 45yo (the peak) is $64k.

I know. I’m an economist. The post was talking hypothetical if the gains were better distributed. GDP/capita is that maximum hypothetical number where the full gross domestic production is evenly distributed to all people.

gotcha. that makes sense

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#507

Post by nroms »

wak90 wrote: post #505
nroms wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wouldn't be considered an insult from those many who liked the book, is my meaning. Just that the parent didn't seem to me to be especially insulting

This is going to sound insulting and it is not meant to be insulting. Your comment shows a fundamental misunderstanding of anarchism and Rand. Her philosophy is particularly odious to people on the left and is especially incompatible with anarchist political philosophy. The idea that there are special super intelligent humans who should be placed at the top of society's hierarchy and be given free range to make any a…

okay yeah, i see your point. I've only read The Fountainhead, which seemed in many regards to be pro "labour" and opposed to bureaucracy and corruption. so I'm not sure yet that rand was opposed to the purported function of unions or the manifestation of them. But indeed anarchy is completely out the window

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#508

Post by bbarn »

pastacacioepepe wrote: post #158
bbarn wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have heard the argument that a negative effect of the post WW2 "feminist" movement (by that I mean women in the work force) has had the long term effect of causing prices to simply adjust to the dual income household, to the point that now it is a necessity. It is a privileged family today that can afford to live comfortably on only one salary.

Why put feminist between quotes?

Because I don't think it's particularly feminist to force both parents to work.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#509

Post by GhettoGPT »

benreesman wrote: post #301
usrbinbash wrote: post #53

It's pretty simple really. If the reward from working is barely enough to cover the necessities, then there is technically no difference between working as a free citizen, and being forced to work as an indentured servant, other than a vague notion of freedom, which in that case is the freedom to decide between working and living on the streets. And people don't like being indentured servants. History should have mad…

You’re going to get a bunch of static because of the objectivist leanings of all the “temporarily impoverished tech billionaires” on HN and pg’s rare miss of an essay about the scarce reagents of the United States manufacturing economy during the Cold War. But you’re fundamentally right. It’s really easy to manipulate indices like the CPI (and oh boy do they have some interesting ideas about what people need in life)…

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Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#510

Post by GhettoGPT »

sebastos wrote: post #385
benreesman wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re going to get a bunch of static because of the objectivist leanings of all the “temporarily impoverished tech billionaires” on HN and pg’s rare miss of an essay about the scarce reagents of the United States manufacturing economy during the Cold War. But you’re fundamentally right. It’s really easy to manipulate indices like the CPI (and oh boy do they have some interesting ideas about what people need in life)…

I'll bite: > The action item that falls out is the same in both cases: drive capture to keep the “right people” running things. This rings true, and seems an insightful point. But I lost the plot in the following: > The result is the same in both cases: if you do a halfway honest plot of productivity and genuine standard of living against the decades, you get divergent lines that seem to be training for an Olympic gy…

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