Live data from Hacker News

How a startup loses its spark

blog.johnqian.com

181–190 of 287 posts

Re: How a startup loses its spark

#181
post #78

> [At larger companies...] Talking to users is for PMs, silly! You stick to what you’re good at. At best you get a summary of user insights and a reasonable task priority list derived from it. At worst you get a confusing task list built off a mistaken understanding of users and the manager’s selfish vision, and no one can explain why each task matters. Not necessarily. At the large companies I've worked at (>200 peo…

Untrained people might want to read these books:

* The Mom Test: How to talk to customers & learn if your business is a good idea when everyone is lying to you

* How to Measure Anything: Finding the Value of Intangibles in Business.

Re: How a startup loses its spark

#182

How this can be made even worse is when you have a startup company that in principle operates like a large company because it wasn't founded on equal terms by all employees as a group, but started by one or a handful of people that fund and hire everyone else. There is no skin in the game as there's no stock options nor revenue share (founders want to keep it all for themselves ofc) and you can be fired on a dime wit…

> The result is 100% turnover.

Problem solved? Just be sure to leave a note online for potential hires to avoid the company.

Re: How a startup loses its spark

#183
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> does an attorney help you write code? That does not sound like the right question. How about: have we vetted our dependencies' licenses?

Man you just harshed the vibe of this free spirited Netflix love-in thread.

Don't mind me then. I think early Netflix' management philosophy -- as far as I know about it from the outside -- was exemplary. I strongly recommend No Rules Rules: Netflix and the Culture of Reinvention.

Re: How a startup loses its spark

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you expand on your other criticisms of the book? How does it conflict with your experience? I'm still learning.

I honestly think the book is so bad that it's not worth a lengthy critique, but in short: 1. Dalio doesn't understand what a "principle" is -- but I can understand that "Aphorisms, Cliches and Hunches" is a less arresting title, if much more accurate. (See [0] for a fuller review on this.) 2. Dalio's version of Bridgewater doesn't line up with the experience of others -- which I have heard from so many people as to c…

I agree that his descriptions are less "principles" and more like "heuristics". The overall message of the book, as the referenced reviewer points out, is "do what's sensible." As someone so young, what is sensible to me is not obvious, so I find value in this.

What, in your opinion, defines what is sensible in business and leads to your frustration with Dalio's message? Can you give personal anecdotes?

Re: How a startup loses its spark

#186
post #54

I'll raise your spark for complete destruction. Here's an incomplete list that I keep around of the mechanisms that I've observed so far that have played a big part in the decline/destruction of an engineering team (and product thereof): 1. Too-technical leaders: As startup scales, there can sometimes be a mad dash to fill new leadership roles (e.g. VP of Eng, Arch, CTO, etc.). Super-star engineers present at startup…

Yeah that 5 to 10 % seems about right.

I recall a teamwork study that found few if any superstar team players can really make any given team better, but they did discover that one bad apple can easily kill a team’s productivity, happiness and etc.

I once worked for a company that was really great about “no finger pointing” and lots of trust of employees to do the right thing.

We acquired a small troubled company along the way, they were a mess with finger pointing and empty accusations. Within a year they had infected our entire department:(

Re: How a startup loses its spark

#187
post #178
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean? They just.. Do it? Nothing about an engineer precludes having good sense at other things.

Nothing about an engineer includes having good sense at other things, either. In fact, many of the best engineers are profoundly bad at figuring out what to work on.

Sure fine but if the question is 'how does an engineer know what's good to do' the answer is, "get good". Ask questions, learn what's important, and think about more than code.

Re: How a startup loses its spark

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, "time box" means the time is fixed, the work achieved is variable. Projects: the project comes in "on time and under budget" or is "late", but the work is fixed. Time boxes: The difference is if you are targeting an RoE curve, you can decide when to continue investing in that or pivot to something else. You pick a date to re-evaluate. This is how VC work with startups. You also make sure have minimum…

I understand what you're saying. I just don't understand what makes it a project vs. not. Fixed-scope projects, fixed-time projects, projects that are fixed in time and you have to fight the stakeholders on in scope... these are all projects with different features. It sounds like you prefer to work in an env where there are only fixed-time, variable scope projects. I like that better too.

For the layperson definition of project, of course you're right.

The problem is the professional definition of project, which comes with project management practices and preconceptions.

Those are generally harmful, because they try to manage or control both time and resources needed to deliver unknowns in advance of an inherently discovery-based process that results in (re-)scoping as you learn:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_management_triangle

> It sounds like you prefer to work in an env where there are only fixed-time, variable scope projects. I like that better too.

I posit it's not just "prefer", it's reality. That all "projects" are in fact "fixed time, variable scope" in hindsight. In other words, "it takes as long as it takes" to uncover and ship a minimum viable scope for the "job to be done".

As an entrepreneur, it's preferable to create a workplace that acknowledges that reality up front, and designs the "way of working" for it.

As an engineer, it's preferable, as you note, to join one.

---

Some more musings:

The OP's post says work stops being fun. A key reason why is all the unfortunate beliefs, management overhead, and recrimination for practices trying to override reality and failing.

Small startups don't care. The cost of 5 people being wrong seems irrelevant compared to charging at the problem and getting it done, or finding out it doesn't work so you can pivot. How many "Show HN" are after a pivot? How many "Launch HN" for that matter?

Enterprises care. The cost of 500, or 5000, building the "wrong thing" seems unacceptable (even if less cost per person!), so big companies keep piling on layers of risk management that delay getting in touch with reality.

One reason they do this is the value of the outcome isn't clear. Perhaps it's political, perhaps it's make-work to keep someone's department full sized, perhaps it's a failure of imagination. So they develop scar tissue about shipping multi-year boondoggles that deliver no value. The problem was, it wasn't valuable in the first place, and if they'd just tried it out in the small and iterated, they'd have learned with fewer man-hours than all the planning.

For a great take on this, see Tom DeMarco (author of Peopleware) rethinking his entire stance on projects after 50 years(!) trying to tell people how to project-manage better:

https://www.computer.org/csdl/magazine/so/2011/06/mso2011060...

He even throws in the towel on estimation with the now famous phrase, "All projects that finish late have this one thing in common: they started late."

He effectively accepts reality: the needful is the needful, the value is the value, so if it's valuable you'll do what you have to do, just start already and get it done.

What I've found is, a big enterprise can understand this. The CEO can hold his business leaders accountable to telling the value that an effort should generate, the CFO can "venture capital" an appropriately sized investment in a fixed capacity team, and the team can focus to deliver value -- or offer a pivot -- before they run out of funding and can't raise another round.

If they're shipping well, and getting market traction, the business leader looks good, the CEO is happy, and the CFO can continue to invest. One neat thing with this is the remarkable "budget" predictability that comes with investing in teams instead of in projects. Control your capacity and focus, you'll always hit your expense numbers, with net higher RoE as a nice side effect. So not only are customers getting value early, boards and shareholders are impressed with "hitting the numbers".

So this solves that iron triangle.

By continually focusing in on shipping what brings high RoE, you can let "the business" pick any arbitrary amount of time (quarterly? annually?) to announce sets of new features as releases. You can keep teams steady and employed delivering instead of wastefully scaling up then laying off as if tacit knowledge loss didn't have a cost.

And people can feel good about building value they can see as they work.

Re: How a startup loses its spark

#189

I really like the approach of Netflix of 10 years ago when it was still small. They hired mature people so they could get rid of processes. Indeed, they actually tried to de-process everything. As a result, things just happened. Non-event was often mentioned and expected in Netflix at that time. Case in point, active-active regions just happened in a few months. A really easy to use deployment tool, Asgard, just happ…

I assume these storie-lets are true but the timeline is wrong, it was much more than 10 years ago. I went to an Adrian Cockroft talk in 2012: they had thousands of engineers and hundreds of services at that time, Asgard already existed and was in the process of being open-sourced, etc.

Re: How a startup loses its spark

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coming from Canada (and Quebec especially) it's curious to see a recognition of this emerge in SV. Quebec has a problem that historically small enterprise funding came from sources that require commitment to hiring plans (i.e. in two years hire fifty people or you get nothing), which leads to absolute madness, and a unsurprising lack of successful exits. I had seriously underestimated how bad the hiring situation for…

> sources that require commitment to hiring plans Are these local/provincial development funds that need to show job growth? Any case where "we need to hire someone in the worst way" seems to deliver exactly that.

Precisely. Can also apply to tax credits. Luckily since the tax credit war race to the bottom ran out of steam this nonsense has been far less prominent, but for a long time many of the game studios in Montreal were dependent on this sort of thing.

I regarded many of these subsidies as killing the business dead before it had even started, but missed that if you can keep it going for two years at least the managers escape with some decent money.

Post reply on HN