I feel like I made a mistake investing professionally into Flutter • Hacker News Board

Re: I feel like I made a mistake investing professionally into Flutter

#201

Post by sirsinsalot » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 6:27 PM UTC

scarface_74 wrote: post #169

sirsinsalot wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always read "learn" in this context as "be familiar enough with the basic language properties that I can pick the rest up on the job, get things done, and not be too dangerous, or annoying in code review" and when I read it that way I agree. Some of the best devs I have hired had no prior experience in the stack. I'm not hiring for Python or C#, I am hiring a software engineer and the skills I value are all transfe…

What about your tech leads who are looking for top of market salary? By top of market, I mean within your hiring pool not senior staff principal engineer level at a hedge fund

What about them? I'm looking for someone who has lead a team, solved that level of problems, has good soft skills and leadership.

The language or stack is irrelevant.

A good lead knows the right questions to ask, understands they don't have all the answers and plays to their own and the teams strength.

Honestly the last thing I care about, especially here, is if they know the stack.

Re: I feel like I made a mistake investing professionally into Flutter

#202

Post by scarface_74 » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 6:30 PM UTC

sirsinsalot wrote: post #201

scarface_74 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about your tech leads who are looking for top of market salary? By top of market, I mean within your hiring pool not senior staff principal engineer level at a hedge fund

What about them? I'm looking for someone who has lead a team, solved that level of problems, has good soft skills and leadership. The language or stack is irrelevant. A good lead knows the right questions to ask, understands they don't have all the answers and plays to their own and the teams strength. Honestly the last thing I care about, especially here, is if they know the stack.

And the other part of “leading the team” is being able to mentor juniors and help them technically.

What good is a lead if they can’t answer technical questions and can’t help other developers with technical guidance?

What will it do for team morale on your iOS team when they know you bought in a “lead” who couldn’t actually help them with the tough technical problems?

Re: I feel like I made a mistake investing professionally into Flutter

#203

Post by somsak2 » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 6:34 PM UTC

mathisfun123 wrote: post #190

tkiolp4 wrote: post #15

I don’t buy it. As software developers we learn technologies for breakfast. We learn them, and then we forget them. We recollect the wisdom gained and apply it in our next gig using a different technology. It works for mobile development, for frontend, for backend, for infra, for almost anything. I have worked for years with PHP, Apache, Ansible and MySQL. Nowadays not anymore. And in 7 years I’ll be using something…

>don’t buy it. As software developers we learn technologies for breakfast. This is such a funny mantra. Okay learn how nuclear fission works. Or EUV lithography. Or power transmission across superconductors. All of these are extant, commercial, technologies (yes even the last one). Too much? How about something more pedestrian like overhead cams and electric fuel injection? Too far afield? Okay learn how DMA works on…

You're just arguing semantics. And the example given can go the other way: if your Ford motor plant closes and the only places hiring are software shops, you'd also be "fucked".

Re: I feel like I made a mistake investing professionally into Flutter

#204

Post by somsak2 » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 6:38 PM UTC

the_only_law wrote: post #198

dcchambers wrote: post #180

Why are people so obsessed with hyper specializing in software development? Labeling yourself a react dev or rails dev or flutter dev or whatever is only going to limit your growth and options. Your career will outlive many tech stacks. Tech changes quickly. Never stop learning.

Because once the market goes belly up, being a generalist seems to be a death sentence. One thing I noticed having been on the job search for about a year now, is the amount of jobs looking for a specialist, whether that be in a particular domain, or technology. Often very obscure or “obsolete” stuff. I remember applying to a government job, and in their little checklist application, one of the questions was basicall…

The trick with these kinds of questions is to take a page from a politician's book and not answer it directly if you feel like you'd have to say "no".

"I built X system in [somewhat adjacent domain]", "[hyper specific domain] is a subset of my work in [more general domain]" etc.

Re: I feel like I made a mistake investing professionally into Flutter

#205

Post by scarface_74 » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 6:40 PM UTC

convolvatron wrote: post #191

scarface_74 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn’t though if I hired someone with no experience. They gave me six months of negative work as they took time away from the more experienced developers, did a year and a half of resume driven development (if they are smart) and then moved on. If I hired someone with the experience I was looking for, then they gave me 2 years of productive work. Why would I train someone new instead of just poaching your develo…

having a mix of experience levels is really healthy for an organization. streamlining onboarding and extracting the secret recipes from the seniors is really valuable there is no better understanding than that gained by teaching its clearly a higher risk investment, but often times that one super workhorse and brilliant jewel is the one that you helped grow but yeah, I've had employees that just sat around learning t…

> but if it happens a lot then maybe you should look at your hiring and management

You as a hiring manager only have power of hiring and management. Your HR department at the behest of their management controls how much of a raise you can give your employees.

You can give them the meaningless platitudes of “we are family” for only so long.

Re: I feel like I made a mistake investing professionally into Flutter

#206

Post by somsak2 » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 6:41 PM UTC

nologic01 wrote: post #165

Developers have a finite useful lifespan and they need to pick their portfolio of techologies wisely if their journey is not going to be an anxious random walk chasing the latest fad. You cant only pick "winners" but you almost need to develop a sixth sense for what will be a valuable and long term addition to your finite toolbox. Looking at tech attributes is just the start. business and community context, complemen…

I don't think it's subtle at all. Pick existing popular technologies / frameworks. If you like to gamble a bit, pick those that you see growing quickly. Invest time in learning new stuff (ideally, on an employer's dime) throughout your career.

If you don't care about being on the 'bleeding edge', you really don't have to think about it too hard and you'll have plenty of job opportunities.

Re: I feel like I made a mistake investing professionally into Flutter

#207

Post by coldtea » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 6:46 PM UTC

scarface_74 wrote: post #32

tkiolp4 wrote: post #15

I don’t buy it. As software developers we learn technologies for breakfast. We learn them, and then we forget them. We recollect the wisdom gained and apply it in our next gig using a different technology. It works for mobile development, for frontend, for backend, for infra, for almost anything. I have worked for years with PHP, Apache, Ansible and MySQL. Nowadays not anymore. And in 7 years I’ll be using something…

Yes because I know Java (hypothetically I haven’t touched Java since two years after it was introduced) I can become an efficient Android developer “in a few days”. Better yet, since I did Windows CE development for ruggedized devices using C# Compact framework back between 2007-2010, I should have no problem picking up iOS development “in a few days” and start being a productive member of a team right? Or better yet…

>Yes because I know Java (hypothetically I haven’t touched Java since two years after it was introduced) I can become an efficient Android developer “in a few days”.

No, but you probably can in 6 months. Whereas if you hadn't even touched any language and UI framework before, it would have taken you a few years.

Does it have to happen "in a few days" to matter? Or the hyperbole is to argue that past experience with different languages and their concepts, and SDKs and their architecture doesn't help going forward, because each of them is some kind of unique snowflake?

Re: I feel like I made a mistake investing professionally into Flutter

#208

Post by doix » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 6:47 PM UTC

scarface_74 wrote: post #179

doix wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it really depends on what your definition of "productive" is. Let me try and quantify it. I looked through my apps that I installed from F-Droid, then looked at their GitHub issues and picked one [0]. I bet I could implement that in less than a week with 0 Android development experience. > Every Android version is basically a reboot in many parts of the framework, the device fragmentation is hardly any better…

Are you trying to find a job as a journeyman developer (nothing wrong with that) or are you trying to lead a team or be a senior where you are expected to be productive from day one and maybe mentor developers and be more strategic? Would you hire me someone who not only doesn’t know anything about Android development but doesn’t even follow the ecosystem and the current trends?

If I was looking for a job, I'd say that I have no professional Android experience but I'm confident that I could hit the ground running at a senior level and mentor juniors for Android.

I mean, in this hypothetical scenario, I've decided that I want a job as an Android developer. So I would take my own time to learn Android whilst interviewing. By the time I got a job, I'm confident I'd hit the ground running.

I wouldn't try to apply for a job to lead an Android team without at least working in one first. I'm sure some people do, but I'm not that confident ;).

> Would you hire me someone who not only doesn’t know anything about Android development but doesn’t even follow the ecosystem and the current trends?

I wouldn't hire you because you don't sound like you think you could do it.

If I was interviewing someone and they said something like: "I have no experience with Android, but I know Kotlin and I'm confident I could pick it up. I did a similar thing with x,y,z" then sure.

Re: I feel like I made a mistake investing professionally into Flutter

#209

Post by scarface_74 » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 6:50 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #207

scarface_74 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes because I know Java (hypothetically I haven’t touched Java since two years after it was introduced) I can become an efficient Android developer “in a few days”. Better yet, since I did Windows CE development for ruggedized devices using C# Compact framework back between 2007-2010, I should have no problem picking up iOS development “in a few days” and start being a productive member of a team right? Or better yet…

> Yes because I know Java (hypothetically I haven’t touched Java since two years after it was introduced) I can become an efficient Android developer “in a few days”. No, but you probably can in 6 months. Whereas if you hadn't even touched any language and UI framework before, it would have taken you a few years. Does it have to happen "in a few days" to matter? Or the hyperbole is to argue that past experience with…

How much similarity do you think there is between modern Android and C# Compact framework in 2008? The last time I did any “mobile development”?

Re: I feel like I made a mistake investing professionally into Flutter

#210

Post by coldtea » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 6:57 PM UTC

scarface_74 wrote: post #209

coldtea wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes because I know Java (hypothetically I haven’t touched Java since two years after it was introduced) I can become an efficient Android developer “in a few days”. No, but you probably can in 6 months. Whereas if you hadn't even touched any language and UI framework before, it would have taken you a few years. Does it have to happen "in a few days" to matter? Or the hyperbole is to argue that past experience with…

How much similarity do you think there is between modern Android and C# Compact framework in 2008? The last time I did any “mobile development”?

Note how the parent said: "As software developers we learn technologies for breakfast. We learn them, and then we forget them. We recollect the wisdom gained and apply it in our next gig using a different technology".

If you havent' done that with any technology for a full 15 years in some domain, and so can't adapt to the current framework used quickly, it's not like this refutes the parent's comment.

The parent described a situation where you serially learn new technologies and move on, which means there's a lot of concepts that transfer fine, and things that gradually change that you can more easily pick up in much smaller time. If you had done Android development in 2018, it wouldn't be that different to 2023.