How a startup loses its spark • Hacker News Board

Re: How a startup loses its spark

#91

Post by convolvatron » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 3:28 PM UTC

fnordpiglet wrote: post #67

dventimi wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you describe your work at large companies as "intoxicating"?

Absolutely. The most exciting work I’ve done that has literally changed our world was done at systemically important multinational megacorps, where we created environments of unfettered innovation and an assembled teams of amazing individuals working as a coherent team. I had some really great leaders early in my career that showed it’s not only possible it’s the only way to enjoy any role at any company no matter th…

big companies have resources that give you reach (channels, marketing, human talent, legal, international presence, longer term investments) that you can never get with a smaller company.

being able to apply them effectively can really be really frustrating though. and there is always the danger that your two year development arc will be demolished by 'shifts in overall strategy' or 'belt tightening' or a reorg.

Re: How a startup loses its spark

#92

Post by Mistletoe » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 3:29 PM UTC

yafbum wrote: post #87

samhuk wrote: post #54

I'll raise your spark for complete destruction. Here's an incomplete list that I keep around of the mechanisms that I've observed so far that have played a big part in the decline/destruction of an engineering team (and product thereof): 1. Too-technical leaders: As startup scales, there can sometimes be a mad dash to fill new leadership roles (e.g. VP of Eng, Arch, CTO, etc.). Super-star engineers present at startup…

Big +1 on too technical leaders. Seen this a couple times with brilliant engineers who, once they became in charge of 50 different teams, appeared to try to just do the same work they did in one team but "scaled". Put every team in a spreadsheet and try to automate management through uniform metrics instead of focusing on managing and growing his direct reports. And another time, seen a less technical leader step in,…

I've seen this in science as well. Analysts get promoted to managers and managing is a completely different skill set that involves social skills, communication, empathy- all people skills that they didn't need to be a good analyst. They were promoted because they were good at being an analyst- meticulous, quiet, just do their job and don't interact with others. Unfortunately almost none of this carries over to being a good manager. I wished many times that they just hired people with management skills from some field completely outside of science, a manager doesn't really need to know the intricacies of the work to do their job well.

My last industry job saw the company implode from this cycle as everyone got pissed off and left the company. My old ex co-worker sent me a letter from the CEO last week saying layoffs were starting because revenues were down and they keep losing clients...

Re: How a startup loses its spark

#93

Post by ghaff » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 3:34 PM UTC

Mistletoe wrote: post #92

yafbum wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big +1 on too technical leaders. Seen this a couple times with brilliant engineers who, once they became in charge of 50 different teams, appeared to try to just do the same work they did in one team but "scaled". Put every team in a spreadsheet and try to automate management through uniform metrics instead of focusing on managing and growing his direct reports. And another time, seen a less technical leader step in,…

I've seen this in science as well. Analysts get promoted to managers and managing is a completely different skill set that involves social skills, communication, empathy- all people skills that they didn't need to be a good analyst. They were promoted because they were good at being an analyst- meticulous, quiet, just do their job and don't interact with others. Unfortunately almost none of this carries over to being…

That's true. It's also the case that, if you polled people here, you'd find no shortage of people with zero respect for managers without technical backgrounds.

Re: How a startup loses its spark

#94

Post by samhuk » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 3:43 PM UTC

yafbum wrote: post #87

samhuk wrote: post #54

I'll raise your spark for complete destruction. Here's an incomplete list that I keep around of the mechanisms that I've observed so far that have played a big part in the decline/destruction of an engineering team (and product thereof): 1. Too-technical leaders: As startup scales, there can sometimes be a mad dash to fill new leadership roles (e.g. VP of Eng, Arch, CTO, etc.). Super-star engineers present at startup…

Big +1 on too technical leaders. Seen this a couple times with brilliant engineers who, once they became in charge of 50 different teams, appeared to try to just do the same work they did in one team but "scaled". Put every team in a spreadsheet and try to automate management through uniform metrics instead of focusing on managing and growing his direct reports. And another time, seen a less technical leader step in,…

It's interesting that you have experienced both sides of the leadership problem space. Honestly a bit glad to hear that others share my experiences and that I'm not just unlucky or something.

Also, oh my do I ever have an extremely similar experience of an IC-type engineer going into a leadership position and trying to "engineer" it: put all teams, sprints, tech visions, growth frameworks, etc. in huge spreadsheets. I look back in jest now, lessons to be learned!

Re: How a startup loses its spark

#95

Post by Zetice » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 3:51 PM UTC

> If you find an idea that you think is both valuable to the company and interesting to you, you can just drop everything to work on it.

What.

How is an engineer deciding what to work on like this, even at a small startup?!

Re: How a startup loses its spark

#96

Post by Zetice » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 3:54 PM UTC

samhuk wrote: post #54

I'll raise your spark for complete destruction. Here's an incomplete list that I keep around of the mechanisms that I've observed so far that have played a big part in the decline/destruction of an engineering team (and product thereof): 1. Too-technical leaders: As startup scales, there can sometimes be a mad dash to fill new leadership roles (e.g. VP of Eng, Arch, CTO, etc.). Super-star engineers present at startup…

I think your question about avoiding these mechanisms isn't the right one; the real question is, how does one succeed despite these inevitable problems?

In other words, I don't think you avoid these, I think you understand they're coming and accept the trade off, making sure it's worth the issues you invite when you do have to promote those engineers/non-technical people, for example.

Re: How a startup loses its spark

#97

Post by ajkjk » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 3:55 PM UTC

Zetice wrote: post #95

> If you find an idea that you think is both valuable to the company and interesting to you, you can just drop everything to work on it. What. How is an engineer deciding what to work on like this, even at a small startup?!

What do you mean? They just.. Do it? Nothing about an engineer precludes having good sense at other things.

Re: How a startup loses its spark

#98

Post by alexchantavy » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 4:01 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #68

I liked parts of this and disagreed with other parts. Perhaps the part I agreed with the most is "don't hire too fast". It's difficult for me to think of a startup (or, honestly, any company) that failed or experienced pains from hiring too slow, but I can think of tons of problems (often from personal experience) from hiring too fast. One piece I couldn't help roll my eyes at is the "don't use Jira" bit - like the s…

+1, I was also confused about the don't use Jira part - what is the alternative that will let dinosaur companies "operate more like startups"?

Re: How a startup loses its spark

#99

Post by samhuk » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 4:08 PM UTC

Zetice wrote: post #96

samhuk wrote: post #54

I'll raise your spark for complete destruction. Here's an incomplete list that I keep around of the mechanisms that I've observed so far that have played a big part in the decline/destruction of an engineering team (and product thereof): 1. Too-technical leaders: As startup scales, there can sometimes be a mad dash to fill new leadership roles (e.g. VP of Eng, Arch, CTO, etc.). Super-star engineers present at startup…

I think your question about avoiding these mechanisms isn't the right one; the real question is, how does one succeed despite these inevitable problems? In other words, I don't think you avoid these, I think you understand they're coming and accept the trade off, making sure it's worth the issues you invite when you do have to promote those engineers/non-technical people, for example.

I think another comment made a good point - It's all about rapidly determining when the hires and promotions aren't right.

Re: How a startup loses its spark

#100

Post by fidotron » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 4:10 PM UTC

zbentley wrote: post #76

> hire less The value of this recommendation cannot be overstated. Put another way: only hire when there is no other way to solve a problem, and even then do so carefully. Be willing to elongate timelines substantially as a result of this practice; the medium- and long-term costs of over hiring are much worse than the cost of later launches. Unfortunately, the funding environment and growth expectations for startups…

Coming from Canada (and Quebec especially) it's curious to see a recognition of this emerge in SV. Quebec has a problem that historically small enterprise funding came from sources that require commitment to hiring plans (i.e. in two years hire fifty people or you get nothing), which leads to absolute madness, and a unsurprising lack of successful exits.

I had seriously underestimated how bad the hiring situation for startups in SV had become though, and a lot of people are using them as a bench to either recover from FAANG burnout or to put on a resume while training for interviews. With that dynamic a hiring manager is going to end up leaning towards being too optimistic because you can't risk not noticing the few that can build your company. You just need to be aggressive about removing those that aren't working out.