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Our fight is far from over

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Re: Our fight is far from over

#61

Post by mcpackieh »

usr1106 wrote: post #38
Minor49er wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Libraries and schools have been adopting books that depict graphic sexual acts. These books are targeted at minors and parents are demanding their removal. Rightly so

I saw graphic sexual acts in schoolbooks and children books at the age of ten 50 years ago. In Europe, not US. I doubt that it has impacted my mental health, my development or anything else. It's a fact that the US has more teenage pregnancies and more porn production than most European countries. It appears to me that the "Me too" problem is bigger in the US. So parents asking for removal of such books don't do anyt…

> I saw graphic sexual acts in schoolbooks and children books at the age of ten 50 years ago. In Europe, not US.

How would you feel if American values were imposed on your European community? And how do you think Americans would feel if your European values were imposed on their community?

These libraries and schools are funded at a local level, so it is locals who get a say in how that funding is used or the conditions under which it may be withdrawn. Incidentally, a public library is not necessarily publicly funded (a public library is a library that is open to the public, not necessarily funded by the public); they are free to seek private sources of funding and thereby free themselves from local democratic influence. You could organize Europeans and likeminded Americans to pool your money and fund these libraries against the wishes of the local community, but would that really be a good idea?

Re: Our fight is far from over

#62

Post by mcpackieh »

wl wrote: post #48
mcpackieh wrote: post #29

The worst part of this is the CDL scheme used DRM, making it strictly inferior to piracy and therefore essentially useless to me and many others. IA has stuck their neck on the chopping block for the dumbest reason. They should have stuck to legally hosting whatever they can legally host without DRM and left the rest to other organizations that can thumb their noses at American courts.

They had print books that were not otherwise available as ebooks. This has been immensely useful for my research. I have a feeling that I have a whole lot more interlibrary loans in my future.

> They had print books that were not otherwise available as ebooks.

Including pirate sources? I know they had a lot of ebooks that had no official and legitimate ebook, I encountered many of those, but in every case I was able to find the same scanned book somewhere else without the DRM. Probably the same scan I'm guessing, stripped of DRM or maybe uploaded elsewhere by the same person who scanned it for IA.

Re: Our fight is far from over

#63

Post by Kim_Bruning »

mcpackieh wrote: post #61
usr1106 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw graphic sexual acts in schoolbooks and children books at the age of ten 50 years ago. In Europe, not US. I doubt that it has impacted my mental health, my development or anything else. It's a fact that the US has more teenage pregnancies and more porn production than most European countries. It appears to me that the "Me too" problem is bigger in the US. So parents asking for removal of such books don't do anyt…

> I saw graphic sexual acts in schoolbooks and children books at the age of ten 50 years ago. In Europe, not US. How would you feel if American values were imposed on your European community? And how do you think Americans would feel if your European values were imposed on their community? These libraries and schools are funded at a local level, so it is locals who get a say in how that funding is used or the conditi…

I'd argue that freedom of speech and freedom of access to that speech is -in fact- a role that is essential to democracy. This is true on both sides of the Atlantic.

If the opposing party(ies) have the power tell librarians to only show people materials in favor of their political position(s), then they can use that power to distort the truth and corrupt the vote, as happens in totalitarian countries.

This is one reason why it's important for libraries to be able to give a person access to all the materials they want access to, and not to distort or censor that access.

Re: Our fight is far from over

#64

Post by wl »

mcpackieh wrote: post #62
wl wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They had print books that were not otherwise available as ebooks. This has been immensely useful for my research. I have a feeling that I have a whole lot more interlibrary loans in my future.

> They had print books that were not otherwise available as ebooks. Including pirate sources? I know they had a lot of ebooks that had no official and legitimate ebook, I encountered many of those, but in every case I was able to find the same scanned book somewhere else without the DRM. Probably the same scan I'm guessing, stripped of DRM or maybe uploaded elsewhere by the same person who scanned it for IA.

Yes, including pirate sources. There's a lot of academic work from circa 1970-1990 that publishers don't care to make available as ebooks and are too obscure for pirates to have any interest in digitizing.

Re: Our fight is far from over

#65

Post by mcpackieh »

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #63
mcpackieh wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I saw graphic sexual acts in schoolbooks and children books at the age of ten 50 years ago. In Europe, not US. How would you feel if American values were imposed on your European community? And how do you think Americans would feel if your European values were imposed on their community? These libraries and schools are funded at a local level, so it is locals who get a say in how that funding is used or the conditi…

I'd argue that freedom of speech and freedom of access to that speech is -in fact- a role that is essential to democracy. This is true on both sides of the Atlantic. If the opposing party(ies) have the power tell librarians to only show people materials in favor of their political position(s), then they can use that power to distort the truth and corrupt the vote, as happens in totalitarian countries. This is one rea…

I think the meaning and implications of the ostensibly shared principle to which you appeal are not quite as universal as you suggest, but leaving that aside for the moment (unless you choose to press this point), as codified in US law it does not entitle libraries to receive funding from local governments.

I agree that libraries should have the right by law to lend any book they please, and in fact they do have that right. But they aren't entitled to public funding; on the contrary, such an entitlement would strip the community of their right to democratically determine where their tax dollars are allocated. The simple fact of the matter is that nobody's legal rights are actually being violated when a local government votes to discontinue their funding of a local library because they don't like books. They aren't banning the possession, sale or distribution of these books, they're only taking away public funding for it, doing so with normal legal democratic means. If this is something you feel strongly about, you and others can organize to provide private funding for these libraries, and then there would be nothing locals could legally do to stop it. They could try passing laws banning the possession, distribution, etc of these books, but such a law would not stand up to legal scrutiny. The principle to which you appeal guarantees you the right to lend any book you like, but it doesn't entitle you to receive public money for it, against the wishes of the community from which that money is to come.

Re: Our fight is far from over

#66

Post by Kim_Bruning »

mcpackieh wrote: post #65
Kim_Bruning wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that freedom of speech and freedom of access to that speech is -in fact- a role that is essential to democracy. This is true on both sides of the Atlantic. If the opposing party(ies) have the power tell librarians to only show people materials in favor of their political position(s), then they can use that power to distort the truth and corrupt the vote, as happens in totalitarian countries. This is one rea…

I think the meaning and implications of the ostensibly shared principle to which you appeal are not quite as universal as you suggest, but leaving that aside for the moment (unless you choose to press this point), as codified in US law it does not entitle libraries to receive funding from local governments. I agree that libraries should have the right by law to lend any book they please, and in fact they do have that…

Hmmm, I'm not sure where you're headed.

Perhaps an example might help?

Say someone requests (an inter-library loan for) Mein Kampf [1] or -say- Das Kapital [2]. Would you advocate a) defunding the library for lending them that book, we should not give them public funding if they loan out reprehensible books b) funding the library, we should give libraries public funding so that they can fulfill the function of letting anyone read any work for any reason. or c) should funding for libraries be divorced from whether or not they would loan a person that book? or d) other.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Kapital

Re: Our fight is far from over

#67

Post by xp84 »

alexey-salmin wrote: post #39
endisneigh wrote: post #10

IMHO they were very dumb to do the emergency lending nonsense to begin with. A good example of letting ideology walk you past the cliff. Even if they’re successful against the injunction the damage has been done. Given how tenuous online lending is already, it was naive to push the boundary further. I feel a similar ideological gap is slowly growing in the treatment of data surrounding generative AI.

What is it there to lose? Worst case we're back to kindle which is the same as doing nothing.

Worst case is they’re ordered to shut the entire archive down. It will be like the burning of the Library of Alexandria only the arsonists are the IP lobby and the reason it happened is ego.

Re: Our fight is far from over

#68

Post by mcpackieh »

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #66
mcpackieh wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the meaning and implications of the ostensibly shared principle to which you appeal are not quite as universal as you suggest, but leaving that aside for the moment (unless you choose to press this point), as codified in US law it does not entitle libraries to receive funding from local governments. I agree that libraries should have the right by law to lend any book they please, and in fact they do have that…

Hmmm, I'm not sure where you're headed. Perhaps an example might help? Say someone requests (an inter-library loan for) Mein Kampf [1] or -say- Das Kapital [2]. Would you advocate a) defunding the library for lending them that book, we should not give them public funding if they loan out reprehensible books b) funding the library, we should give libraries public funding so that they can fulfill the function of lettin…

> Mein Kampf

Let's get this straight upfront: I'm not talking about anti-Nazi laws. In Germany it is illegal to sell to lend games which glorify war or violence to kids. Germany banned this game and there isn't a nazi or swastika in sight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmPjsBDN9Xw

Nor am I criticizing Germany for it. Germans are entitled to their values. But the point illustrated is that America isn't unique in deciding what is or isn't appropriate media for children to have access too. Germany's violent video game bans go further than any of these American book bans, actually banning the sale of these games to kids. None of the book bans in America ban the sale of these books to kids. Even libraries are not banned from lending these books, provided they can find other sources of funding.

As to your question, my personal belief is your answer b). Within practical reason (expense, availability) libraries should get and lend whichever books are in demand no matter how many other people those books offend. Since money and shelf space are scarce, prioritize the books with the greatest demand, regardless of how many other people hate that book. People who want books banned from public libraries to "protect kids" are stupid; parents need merely go to the library with their children and personally supervise what their kids read. That's how I would cast my vote, but I'm not a dictator and if the rest of the community votes to defund the library instead, that is what it is. The first amendment does not guarantee funding for public libraries, funding is provided to libraries voluntarily. If libraries want funding they need to convince a sufficient majority of the population to vote for that funding. And if people don't like how a library is being run, they're well within their rights to vote against funding that library. I wouldn't have it any other way, this is a democratic society and people voting the way they feel is the entire point. My personal preference is not the law, I only get one vote just like everybody else.

If you want to prevent this kind of defunding attack, I think there are several options: State or federal legislation to guarantee more funding to public libraries is one possibility; this would make libraries resistant to local defunding efforts, but of course passing such grander funding laws would perhaps be an even greater challenge. I think this is worth attempting nevertheless. Alternatively, public libraries can be funded by private donations. The 'public' in public library means that it's open to the public, necessarily that it's funded by the public. Many public libraries across America were founded and have been substantially funded by private donations.

Re: Our fight is far from over

#69

Post by Kim_Bruning »

mcpackieh wrote: post #68
Kim_Bruning wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmmm, I'm not sure where you're headed. Perhaps an example might help? Say someone requests (an inter-library loan for) Mein Kampf [1] or -say- Das Kapital [2]. Would you advocate a) defunding the library for lending them that book, we should not give them public funding if they loan out reprehensible books b) funding the library, we should give libraries public funding so that they can fulfill the function of lettin…

> Mein Kampf Let's get this straight upfront: I'm not talking about anti-Nazi laws. In Germany it is illegal to sell to lend games which glorify war or violence to kids. Germany banned this game and there isn't a nazi or swastika in sight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmPjsBDN9Xw Nor am I criticizing Germany for it. Germans are entitled to their values. But the point illustrated is that America isn't unique in dec…

I guess we're not substantially in disagreement then.

Note that the Anti-Nazi laws in Germany were not -iirc- put in place by Germans, but in fact by Americans. In 1945 these laws made sense to deal with the situation at the time: in a society that had been severely distorted by NSDAP propaganda. As German society has changed, they make less sense now, and people have slowly come around to changing/removing these laws. I'm sure you can see why they are doing so very carefully. I understand the original reason for the laws, and I support the very careful removal/change of the laws.

In case you're curious (I was!): it is entirely possible to get a library loan for Mein Kampf in Germany. A quick google shows you might get a heavily annotated version printed by the state of Bavaria, but it's definitely available.

I agree with you on b). Nor do I disagree with democratic decision making by the community in general. I might have some opinions on people trying to subvert democratic systems to backdoor censorship and/or propaganda. (See also above, with that odd situation in Germany with quite a story to it.)

I think institutions in most western countries are -these days- quite well armored against incidental subversion. That's actually pretty good because that makes it easier to catch before things really go wrong. However, the laws, traditions and processes themselves only slow things down. You still need to actively catch people doing it and work to prevent it, so end of day you still need to maintain (eternal) vigilance.

Re: Our fight is far from over

#70

Post by Minor49er »

Macha wrote: post #58
throwaway2990 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had books at school teaching sexual education but nothing like the explicit pornographic stuff they have now. Nothing teaching anal sex or male/male or female/female. Nothing trying teaching kids to hide things from their parents. Some of the books today are absolutely disgusting. The old books are tame.

Why is male/male and female/female in a sex ed book explicit but male/female is not?

You're asking about this, but not about sexual content being shown to grade school children or the fact that teachers are trying to hide it from the parents?
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