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Zero Motorcycles makes its service manuals free

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Re: Zero Motorcycles makes its service manuals free

#71

Post by SoftTalker »

koolba wrote: post #63
whartung wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BMW no longer sells service manuals for their bikes. There are, essentially, bootlegs on line, but my understanding is that while before they had a dedicated Window application for their manuals, they're moving to an online only system, and only for dealers. So, while there are manuals floating around now, who knows how that will go moving forward. Obviously, this will be a key sticking point in the future with the "…

What’s the rationale for not releasing a manual? To force you to take into a dealer for service? It’s not like they have to make a separate manual. It has to exist for the dealer anyway right?

For modern vehicles, the dealers really don't use manuals anymore. They connect their proprietary diagnostic computer, it runs all the tests and figures out what is wrong, and tells the mechanic what to replace or adjust.

You can sometimes find bootlegs of these computers (generally a "tough" Windows laptop with software and connecting cables). They usually don't have the latest and greatest version of the software, but if your car is older/out of warranty it's generally covered. I don't know if they get them from a recycle stream or dealer mechanics sell their old ones or how it works.

Re: Zero Motorcycles makes its service manuals free

#72

Post by dharmab »

koolba wrote: post #63
whartung wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BMW no longer sells service manuals for their bikes. There are, essentially, bootlegs on line, but my understanding is that while before they had a dedicated Window application for their manuals, they're moving to an online only system, and only for dealers. So, while there are manuals floating around now, who knows how that will go moving forward. Obviously, this will be a key sticking point in the future with the "…

What’s the rationale for not releasing a manual? To force you to take into a dealer for service? It’s not like they have to make a separate manual. It has to exist for the dealer anyway right?

A legitimate reason is to move the service data online so it can be continuously updated and accessible from a web browser instead of the chunky Windows app they were using before straight out of 1995.

But other manufacturers who do this make the data available to consumers via AllData or similar services. BMW does not, presumably to make more money on service.

Re: Zero Motorcycles makes its service manuals free

#73

Post by dharmab »

SoftTalker wrote: post #71
koolba wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s the rationale for not releasing a manual? To force you to take into a dealer for service? It’s not like they have to make a separate manual. It has to exist for the dealer anyway right?

For modern vehicles, the dealers really don't use manuals anymore. They connect their proprietary diagnostic computer, it runs all the tests and figures out what is wrong, and tells the mechanic what to replace or adjust. You can sometimes find bootlegs of these computers (generally a "tough" Windows laptop with software and connecting cables). They usually don't have the latest and greatest version of the software,…

This doesn't make any sense. Many regular issues are not diagnosable by computer. I have legacy access to some current BMW service data and it does not behave the way you describe at all- I only have to whip out the scanner for certain electrical and computer issues, and to update service schedules.

Re: Zero Motorcycles makes its service manuals free

#74

Post by [deleted] »

mmh0000 wrote: post #59
subhro wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1250RS is not top of the line for sure in any of the segments it is marketed at. I would say a K16 would be more towards the top.

I disagree, the 1250RS is basically a redesign of the K1200S (my current bike). Just swapping out the inline-v for the BMW boxer motor. Top of the line, in it's class. A sports bike, with shaft drive, linked brakes, traction control, and heated grips. Find me an electric bike with those features for anywhere near a comparable price. Specifically, I will not even consider a bike without a shaft drive (or in the case o…

[deleted]

Re: Zero Motorcycles makes its service manuals free

#75

Post by mmh0000 »

dharmab wrote: post #69
mmh0000 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, the 1250RS is basically a redesign of the K1200S (my current bike). Just swapping out the inline-v for the BMW boxer motor. Top of the line, in it's class. A sports bike, with shaft drive, linked brakes, traction control, and heated grips. Find me an electric bike with those features for anywhere near a comparable price. Specifically, I will not even consider a bike without a shaft drive (or in the case o…

Belts are less maintenance intensive than shaft drives. A shaft drive needs an oil change every 10,000 miles. A belt needs a change every 60,000 miles or so, depending on storage condtions. The disadvantages of belts are efficiency (especially compared to chains), off road durability and trailside serviceability.

I might just be a bad bike parent, but, my current shaft drive bike has ~42,000 miles on it. It had the shaft-oil replaced once at 800 miles (per manual, break in period).

My bike has been rock-fucking-solid. Its been in the shop once for a real break in 16 years for a busted fuel line. (not including tires and engine oil changes). Its really hard for me to believe another bike could be as reliable.

Re: Zero Motorcycles makes its service manuals free

#76

Post by dharmab »

mmh0000 wrote: post #75
dharmab wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Belts are less maintenance intensive than shaft drives. A shaft drive needs an oil change every 10,000 miles. A belt needs a change every 60,000 miles or so, depending on storage condtions. The disadvantages of belts are efficiency (especially compared to chains), off road durability and trailside serviceability.

I might just be a bad bike parent, but, my current shaft drive bike has ~42,000 miles on it. It had the shaft-oil replaced once at 800 miles (per manual, break in period). My bike has been rock-fucking-solid. Its been in the shop once for a real break in 16 years for a busted fuel line. (not including tires and engine oil changes). Its really hard for me to believe another bike could be as reliable.

In my experience most Suzukis other than the 2000s GSXRs have superior reliability to BMW at the tradeoff of lower sophistication. Though the new VStroms and Hayabusa are competitive with BMW on rider aids. Certain Kawasakis are uo there too, like the Versys and KLR.

Re: Zero Motorcycles makes its service manuals free

#77

Post by Daneel_ »

porknubbins wrote: post #17

Are there any OEMs whose service manuals are hard to find? I restore cars and motorcycles and have never had trouble finding a pdf or hard copy for around $20. Its good that they are doing this though a lot of the secrets I’d want to know about an electric motorcycle are about the ECU when that software is some of the most tightly guarded of any.

It’s impossible to get them for a modern Volvo, for example. I couldn’t even get them to provide me with a wiring diagram for the rear fuse block so I could wire in a trailer brake controller. I managed it via inspection, but it was really poor.

Re: Zero Motorcycles makes its service manuals free

#78

Post by chefandy »

notatoad wrote: post #70
driverdan wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your numbers are completely wrong. Zero has a bike for $12k https://zeromotorcycles.com/model/zero-fx and BMW sells bikes that go well into the $20k ranges. You can get a Surron for under $4k, but it's more like a cross between a bicycle and motorcycle. I do agree with the general premise, that electric is more expensive. There needs to be more competition to drive prices down like is happening for cars.

>but it's more like a cross between a bicycle and motorcycle. and that's kinda the reason that the value proposition for electric motorbikes isn't very good. if you can give up the requirement of "i want to drive on the highway", an electric bicycle is going to do what you need for a fraction of the cost. electric motorbikes lean more towards toys than practical tools, so they're priced like toys.

Maybe more like a cross between a motocross bike and a street bike— it's a dual sport like the Honda CRF450. I wouldn't take it on a road trip but I'll bet it would handle an average highway commute just fine.

Re: Zero Motorcycles makes its service manuals free

#79

Post by throwaway290 »

Mengkudulangsat wrote: post #60
mmh0000 wrote: post #36

I’ve been wanting an electric motorcycle for years. But every time I look at the pricing I just can’t justify it. An entry level electric bike for $25k or a top of the line BMW for $18k. It’s just not even a comparison.

Taiwan is doing electric bikes right. They're not a $25k toy, they are $2k tool.

Motorbikes in general are a toy in the west and a cost efficient tool in all of Asia. Electric motorbikes are not any special. Electrics seem more rare in Taiwan now compared to China a few years ago but they are catching up I guess.

Re: Zero Motorcycles makes its service manuals free

#80

Post by SoftTalker »

dharmab wrote: post #73
SoftTalker wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For modern vehicles, the dealers really don't use manuals anymore. They connect their proprietary diagnostic computer, it runs all the tests and figures out what is wrong, and tells the mechanic what to replace or adjust. You can sometimes find bootlegs of these computers (generally a "tough" Windows laptop with software and connecting cables). They usually don't have the latest and greatest version of the software,…

This doesn't make any sense. Many regular issues are not diagnosable by computer. I have legacy access to some current BMW service data and it does not behave the way you describe at all- I only have to whip out the scanner for certain electrical and computer issues, and to update service schedules.

Everything on a modern car runs through the computer. Climate control, entertainment systems, windows, lights, seats, various driver aids such as cruise control, lane-departure, blind spot warnings, hands-free driving, automatic/antilock braking, traction control, etc. as well as the engine and transmisison. Sure, something like a failing wheel bearing would still be diagnosed by the mechanic, but they need the scanners for most of the problems on a modern car.
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