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Our fight is far from over

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Re: Our fight is far from over

#21

Post by Osmose »

endisneigh wrote: post #10

IMHO they were very dumb to do the emergency lending nonsense to begin with. A good example of letting ideology walk you past the cliff. Even if they’re successful against the injunction the damage has been done. Given how tenuous online lending is already, it was naive to push the boundary further. I feel a similar ideological gap is slowly growing in the treatment of data surrounding generative AI.

Personally I find it more naive to think that tiptoeing around book publishers in fear hoping that they can slowly make small progress is the smarter move. They're not going to make serious progress in the fight against unfair online lending terms by appeasing publishers.

Re: Our fight is far from over

#22

Post by endisneigh »

Osmose wrote: post #21
endisneigh wrote: post #10

IMHO they were very dumb to do the emergency lending nonsense to begin with. A good example of letting ideology walk you past the cliff. Even if they’re successful against the injunction the damage has been done. Given how tenuous online lending is already, it was naive to push the boundary further. I feel a similar ideological gap is slowly growing in the treatment of data surrounding generative AI.

Personally I find it more naive to think that tiptoeing around book publishers in fear hoping that they can slowly make small progress is the smarter move. They're not going to make serious progress in the fight against unfair online lending terms by appeasing publishers.

I’m not sure how you can have this opinion given the result. The internet archive would have clearly been better off “tiptoeing” around

Re: Our fight is far from over

#24

Post by boomboomsubban »

endisneigh wrote: post #20
boomboomsubban wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The emergency lending has almost no relevance in this case, which is about controlled digital lending as a whole

The initial ruling cited emergency lending to justify banning all digital lending and the case was only brought up due to it as well. It has the utmost relevance. It’s no coincidence the initial suit happened mere months after the emergency lending began.

>initial ruling cited emergency lending to justify banning all digital lending and the case was only brought up due to it as well.

The ruling's only mention of the emergency lending was that it was illegal as CDL was illegal.

There's also a fair amount of reason to suspect the publishers were preparing for the lawsuit far before the emergency lending. They were publishing stories about it and forming a petition against it in 2019, following years of criticizing it.

Re: Our fight is far from over

#25

Post by boomboomsubban »

booleandilemma wrote: post #17

I like what the internet archive is doing, but I'm saddened that many just use it as a hack to get around paywalls. I don't think that's in alignment with the internet archive's mission. I think it's important for society in the long-term to keep journalism a rewarding profession. Maybe as a compromise the internet archive could only allow access to archived journalism content after, say, a year's time. We'd be sure…

archive.is has no connection to the Internet Archive, the IA I believe does not allow the easy bypass of things like the NYT paywall.

Re: Our fight is far from over

#26

Post by toss1 »

Osmose wrote: post #21
endisneigh wrote: post #10

IMHO they were very dumb to do the emergency lending nonsense to begin with. A good example of letting ideology walk you past the cliff. Even if they’re successful against the injunction the damage has been done. Given how tenuous online lending is already, it was naive to push the boundary further. I feel a similar ideological gap is slowly growing in the treatment of data surrounding generative AI.

Personally I find it more naive to think that tiptoeing around book publishers in fear hoping that they can slowly make small progress is the smarter move. They're not going to make serious progress in the fight against unfair online lending terms by appeasing publishers.

Agree, but the real naivety is that they did it (afaict) under the same corporate entity as the critical online Internet Archive. This means a loss on this lending issue may jeopardize the entire IA, which would be a much greater loss.

They should absolutely be pushing the edges, but cleave it off so as not to put the whole enterprise at risk.

I hope it doesn't come to that.

Re: Our fight is far from over

#27

Post by Osmose »

endisneigh wrote: post #22
Osmose wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I find it more naive to think that tiptoeing around book publishers in fear hoping that they can slowly make small progress is the smarter move. They're not going to make serious progress in the fight against unfair online lending terms by appeasing publishers.

I’m not sure how you can have this opinion given the result. The internet archive would have clearly been better off “tiptoeing” around

Not only do they still have an appeal, but the problem goes beyond the Internet Archive itself. Lobbying politicians, coordinating with other libraries, inspiring more civil disobedience, all of which can more productively happen now that we've seen what publisher's limits are as well as how we've seen that publisher profits _grew_ over the period that the National Emergency Library was available.

Re: Our fight is far from over

#28

Post by endisneigh »

Osmose wrote: post #27
endisneigh wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure how you can have this opinion given the result. The internet archive would have clearly been better off “tiptoeing” around

Not only do they still have an appeal, but the problem goes beyond the Internet Archive itself. Lobbying politicians, coordinating with other libraries, inspiring more civil disobedience, all of which can more productively happen now that we've seen what publisher's limits are as well as how we've seen that publisher profits _grew_ over the period that the National Emergency Library was available.

The appeal would be for the implementation of the restriction both parties have already agreed to. It’s a clear regression from pre Covid. They’ve lost either way.

Re: Our fight is far from over

#29

Post by mcpackieh »

The worst part of this is the CDL scheme used DRM, making it strictly inferior to piracy and therefore essentially useless to me and many others. IA has stuck their neck on the chopping block for the dumbest reason. They should have stuck to legally hosting whatever they can legally host without DRM and left the rest to other organizations that can thumb their noses at American courts.

Re: Our fight is far from over

#30

Post by endgame »

endisneigh wrote: post #10

IMHO they were very dumb to do the emergency lending nonsense to begin with. A good example of letting ideology walk you past the cliff. Even if they’re successful against the injunction the damage has been done. Given how tenuous online lending is already, it was naive to push the boundary further. I feel a similar ideological gap is slowly growing in the treatment of data surrounding generative AI.

I was utterly flabbergasted by this move. If some unrelated entity had done some bold move in the digital lending space, that would be one thing, but IA is a single point of failure for large amounts of internet history. Frankly, it was completely idiotic to risk all that on an untested lending experiment.
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