80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans • Hacker News Board

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#191

Post by ekianjo » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 1:46 AM UTC

Alupis wrote: post #146

atleastoptimal wrote: post #15

I understand the merits of WFH and in-person work. One thing that is however funny is the guilt tripping used by employers who have this straw-man version of a lazy WFH employee, and more so, employers who have a delusion that their workplace is important enough that people need to sacrifice a large portion of their lives just for the opportunity to be there in person. 90% of jobs aren't people's "passions" and have…

There's a lot of nuance that isn't discussed in the WFH circles. I don't believe the cynical claims some offer of VC's losing out on real estate deals, or mid-level managers needing to boost their butts-in-seats numbers or whatever. For some, perhaps, but on average? What percentage of long-distance relationships work out long-term? Do you become more or less close with friends after they move out of town? Do you sti…

The social animal bullshit is a myth. You can see it around you everyday. People in public places everywhere spending time on their phones rather than talking to people around them

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#192

Post by re-thc » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 1:48 AM UTC

nucleardog wrote: post #151

troupe wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it funny that when people were required to be home, employers talked about what great productivity they were getting with people at home. Then when it isn't required anymore, they want everyone back in the office for...productivity. My guess is that most employers really have no way to measure if an employee is being productive or not so managers are just reporting what makes them look good...and now we are ba…

> My guess is that most employers really have no way to measure if an employee is being productive or not so managers are just reporting what makes them look good My money would be on that being half right. They have no way to really measure productivity, but they were very afraid that productivity would drop to zero—and that is something they would be able to see. Before COVID I don’t know how many times discussions…

> Before COVID I don’t know how many times discussions around WFH basically stopped at “we can’t know that people aren’t just watching TV all day”.

Before COVID I’ve seen plenty of people shop online, chat to friends or play games all day in the office.

What difference does it make? Those that do will anyway. It’s pretty delusional to think sitting in-office = working. If that’s the case all the kids at school should pass, right?

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#193

Post by SoftTalker » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 1:48 AM UTC

jurassic wrote: post #164

Alupis wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of nuance that isn't discussed in the WFH circles. I don't believe the cynical claims some offer of VC's losing out on real estate deals, or mid-level managers needing to boost their butts-in-seats numbers or whatever. For some, perhaps, but on average? What percentage of long-distance relationships work out long-term? Do you become more or less close with friends after they move out of town? Do you sti…

The sweet spot in my experience has been for WFH orgs to get together periodically for extended offsites. A one week gathering twice a year has forged some incredible bonds on my distributed team.

Ugh. Multi-day work offsites are the worst. Along with conferences. You have to make arrangements to be away, (try to) sleep in a hotel room, end up eating and drinking too much, getting a workout in is nearly impossible, they just completely disrupt all your routines and responsibilities.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#194

Post by throw__away7391 » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 1:56 AM UTC

SoftTalker wrote: post #188

nucleardog wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My guess is that most employers really have no way to measure if an employee is being productive or not so managers are just reporting what makes them look good My money would be on that being half right. They have no way to really measure productivity, but they were very afraid that productivity would drop to zero—and that is something they would be able to see. Before COVID I don’t know how many times discussions…

Honestly, when I work from home, I watch TV all day. Not literally -- I mostly read HN and other sites, do personal email, do household tasks, walk the dogs, do a load of laundry. I still get my work done, to a "meets expectations" level, which takes me a few hours, normally right after lunch, and that's good enough for me.

I start work around 6:00 AM and frequently am still at it at 8:00 PM. I've always been a top performer, but I still worry I'm not productive enough and that I'll get laid off. I still prefer this arrangement to going to the office.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#195

Post by rebeccaskinner » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 2:00 AM UTC

For me, there's no money or perks or flexibility that will get me into an office. I haven't had covid, don't plan to get it, and it's honestly a lot riskier today than it would have been in 2020 since we've collectively given up on precautions. I need my brain to work effectively, and the risk of cognitive impairment caused by long covid is just too high to be worth the risk.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#196

Post by re-thc » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 2:07 AM UTC

Alupis wrote: post #146

atleastoptimal wrote: post #15

I understand the merits of WFH and in-person work. One thing that is however funny is the guilt tripping used by employers who have this straw-man version of a lazy WFH employee, and more so, employers who have a delusion that their workplace is important enough that people need to sacrifice a large portion of their lives just for the opportunity to be there in person. 90% of jobs aren't people's "passions" and have…

There's a lot of nuance that isn't discussed in the WFH circles. I don't believe the cynical claims some offer of VC's losing out on real estate deals, or mid-level managers needing to boost their butts-in-seats numbers or whatever. For some, perhaps, but on average? What percentage of long-distance relationships work out long-term? Do you become more or less close with friends after they move out of town? Do you sti…

> For some, perhaps, but on average? > What percentage of long-distance relationships work out long-term?

If only you believe you have this "relationship" at work that's even remotely close to things being equal. For some, perhaps, but on average?

- Do you get to decide what to do or your boss? Even if you know better ways of doing things or see issues you might not have the politics to pull it off. Does this happen in a relationship? If so, it's pretty poor.

- Can you "unfriend" a co-worker and choose not to work with them? Do you choose your team? You can certainly quit your relationship or even friendship. In a company you get assigned a team. You can't pick and choose.

> Human beings are social creatures - yes, even we introverts need interaction.

And you will get it? You assume your co-workers are your friends. Friendship and relationships common together on common things they like. Co-workers come together to work and may not actually have anything in common. So you prefer being forced together and fake friends than not have any? It can be worse. Being professional is all it is.

> We have to acknowledge the real tradeoffs - the loss of the "team"

That's not a WFH issue. Your whole argument sits on that the only way to build relationships is in-person, even by quoting how long-distance relationships fail. Well do you hug and kiss your "team"? If not, then maybe it's fine. And it fails because there aren't ways to enforce the long-distance relationship to spend time together. Are you forced to spend time together with your co-workers? Yes.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#197

Post by Ancalagon » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 2:09 AM UTC

$800 dollars per YEAR was enough for people who had childcare and pet care concerns? That’s a drop in the bucket!

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#198

Post by tbrownaw » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 2:10 AM UTC

troupe wrote: post #48

atleastoptimal wrote: post #15

I understand the merits of WFH and in-person work. One thing that is however funny is the guilt tripping used by employers who have this straw-man version of a lazy WFH employee, and more so, employers who have a delusion that their workplace is important enough that people need to sacrifice a large portion of their lives just for the opportunity to be there in person. 90% of jobs aren't people's "passions" and have…

I find it funny that when people were required to be home, employers talked about what great productivity they were getting with people at home. Then when it isn't required anymore, they want everyone back in the office for...productivity. My guess is that most employers really have no way to measure if an employee is being productive or not so managers are just reporting what makes them look good...and now we are ba…

Changing to work-at-home increases productivity.

Changing to work-at-office increases productivity.

.

Maybe the Hawthorne Effect actually is real?

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#199

Post by re-thc » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 2:12 AM UTC

deaddodo wrote: post #141

lamontcg wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find it funny that when people were required to be home, employers talked about what great productivity they were getting with people at home. Then when it isn't required anymore, they want everyone back in the office for...productivity. The decades of evidence that open office plans are utter shit for productivity already proved that the emperor wears no clothes and they have no idea what makes for better produc…

Open offices are the literal reason (after commuting/traffic) that I no longer want to go into the office. My work doesn't require a ton of person:person engagement and it's much easier for me to just zone out in my own headspace to do it. When I was required in the office, I would just wear headphones to avoid distractions, but I would have to deal with 2-3hrs of driving/day on top of it. This meant that my employer…

> When I was required in the office, I would just wear headphones to avoid distractions

That doesn't work for everyone. Some offices are louder than headphones and some people come around tapping your shoulders regardless.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#200

Post by Sai_ » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 2:12 AM UTC

atleastoptimal wrote: post #15

I understand the merits of WFH and in-person work. One thing that is however funny is the guilt tripping used by employers who have this straw-man version of a lazy WFH employee, and more so, employers who have a delusion that their workplace is important enough that people need to sacrifice a large portion of their lives just for the opportunity to be there in person. 90% of jobs aren't people's "passions" and have…

You're missing the fact that work/job _is_ life changing for someone who needs it to put food on the table. Just because no one is inventing anti-cancer medication every other week doesn't mean that person's internal world is not improved by having a job.