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Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

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71–80 of 322 posts

Re: Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

#71

This is perhaps an obvious question to some, but I'll ask it anyway: How is the power generated here converted into usable electricity? I know for conventional fission reactors the heat of fission is basically used to run a steam turbine. Given the extreme heat of the plasma, and that it must be magnetically suspended so that it doesn't even touch the sides of the containment, how is that heat transferred to some oth…

here there is no power generated as it's not working with deuterium-tritium. most of the heating will heat the plasma and a fraction of this will reach the cooling system. To make a comparison ITER is expected to have 50 MW heating for 400 seconds approx. = 20 GJoule. Using a DT mix will result though in 500 MW Fusion Power

Re: Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

#72

Ahh, Wendelstein is that stellerator reactor. The stellerator is really cool, and an alternative to a tokamak reactor. Tokamak is the doughnut shaped reactor, and it has a problem where the plasma near the outer circumference has less magnetic confinement. The stellerator is similar, but confines the plasma to a ribbon and folds it over on itself in a mobius-like arrangement. I used to be really interested in this, b…

Just curious as to why a Mobius strip type arrangement is better than a toroid? Is it anything to do with the turbulence in the plasma flow being easier to control?

Re: Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

#73

Ahh, Wendelstein is that stellerator reactor. The stellerator is really cool, and an alternative to a tokamak reactor. Tokamak is the doughnut shaped reactor, and it has a problem where the plasma near the outer circumference has less magnetic confinement. The stellerator is similar, but confines the plasma to a ribbon and folds it over on itself in a mobius-like arrangement. I used to be really interested in this, b…

I find the geometry of things like this fascinating. We typically think in such simple shapes. I feel like my brain can do triangle, rectangle and maybe hexagons and that's about it. I remember when I finally understood radians enough to really understand circles and waveforms—I felt so enlightened. Like I actually remember the moment when it clicked. For years I was just "doing the work" without actually understandi…

They're actually quite simple geometries in the right (unintuitive and warped) coordinate system.

Re: Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

#74
post #47
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a minimum viable size for a fusion reactor? If it scaled down ennough, they could just launch prototypes into space, and see if they explode.

I'm honestly not sure if you're joking but in case you're not, the "minimum viable size" is hardly the largest issue with what you're proposing and it sounds like you're not getting what the key issues are. You're talking about taking a technology that's so finicky we've barely gotten it to work after almost 100 years and rocketing it into space? We're no where near good enough at this to get a test that would work a…

That was not a real question, it was a subconscious plea for elon musk to take over and make it work.

"Shooting it into space" is a reference to how SpaceX disrupted the rocket industry through a "fail fast" mentality, aggressive goals, and sheer force of will.

Re: Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

#75
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Odd units. 1 meter = 100 cm = 1000mm. So 1 millionth of a meter = 1/1000th of 1mm. thus, 100 millionths of a meter = 0.1mm, or ~4 thou in American units. Easily achievable by hobbyists, let alone by serious, professional equipment. Sure, that is a pretty exacting specification for what I suppose is a big machine, but I'm pretty sure very normal things like say, car engines get made to far tighter tolerances.

You messed up at your last step 1 millionth = 1mm, 10 millionth = 0.1mm, 100 millionth = 0.01mm 0.01mm is very difficult when you’re talking large custom objects with complex shapes.

Oh, English fail on my part then. I had assumed that 100 millionths of a metre == 100 * 1/1000000.

Re: Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

#76

Ahh, Wendelstein is that stellerator reactor. The stellerator is really cool, and an alternative to a tokamak reactor. Tokamak is the doughnut shaped reactor, and it has a problem where the plasma near the outer circumference has less magnetic confinement. The stellerator is similar, but confines the plasma to a ribbon and folds it over on itself in a mobius-like arrangement. I used to be really interested in this, b…

I find the geometry of things like this fascinating. We typically think in such simple shapes. I feel like my brain can do triangle, rectangle and maybe hexagons and that's about it. I remember when I finally understood radians enough to really understand circles and waveforms—I felt so enlightened. Like I actually remember the moment when it clicked. For years I was just "doing the work" without actually understandi…

Doing CAD design is really interesting. A lot of stuff is just 2.5D, extrusions of 2D sketches sitting on other 2D sketches.

Then you accidentally make something truly 3D by intersecting things and realize you have no idea what you're looking at, couldn't imagine it if you closed your eyes, couldn't replicate it if you had a picture of the result and didn't know the 2D inputs that made it... and then you realize there are probably people out there who can see that entire design in their head.

To me it's like unicycling on a tightrope or skateboarding or realistic oil painting or playing piano well. I have no real concept or reference point for what that experience must be like.

Re: Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

#77

Ahh, Wendelstein is that stellerator reactor. The stellerator is really cool, and an alternative to a tokamak reactor. Tokamak is the doughnut shaped reactor, and it has a problem where the plasma near the outer circumference has less magnetic confinement. The stellerator is similar, but confines the plasma to a ribbon and folds it over on itself in a mobius-like arrangement. I used to be really interested in this, b…

What's interesting is that stellarator actually is not just an alternative, but a wholly parallel branch of evolution - it's not like one was invented strictly after another, and the authors of both designs never knew about the other's work before they completed theirs.

What's even more interesting is that the fusor - the simplest possible design for a thermonuclear reactor, so simple that anyone skilled in electrical engineering and having access to proper civilan equipment can build one with ease - seems to be invented _after_ both stellarator and tokamak.

That said, I never particularly liked stellarator design. The very _complexity_ of it somehow feels subtly wrong, like doubling down in the wrong direction.

However, this is one of the cases where I would absolutely love to be proven wrong. We are far past due big breakthroughs in the field.

Re: Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

#79
post #44
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that the plasma is several million degrees, it will radiate a lot of energy and heat up the walls even if it does not directly touch them. Just cooling the walls can heat up the cooling fluid enough to later produce steam with. AFAIK the Wendelstein machine is not configured for electricity production though, so the cooling is just cooling atm.

> Given that the plasma is several million degrees, it will radiate a lot of energy That doesn't entirely follow. 2 particles whizzing past each other at relativistic speeds have extreme temperatures but don't offer much energy. Mass is in this equation.

What if you have 10^20 particles? Each charged particle emits photons with energy/frequency proportional to their speed (Bremsstrahlung). This is mostly from electrons because they are much lighter and so are much hotter/faster. Plasmas are quasineutral though so you'll have those electrons present. There is a long line of research trying to get away from that constraint with little luck so far (but it should continue to be worked on!).

Jumpjng back up the stack: photon radiation is mostly considered a loss since it transfers energy out of confinement and does not impart it on other fuel. You nominally extract your heat via neutrons: same as fission reactors. Some designs (Helion) aim for reactions with charged byproducts. The reaction produces a current that can be coupled by a surrounding coil, much like a transformer but powered by current induced by plasma rather than another copper wire.

Re: Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

#80

Ahh, Wendelstein is that stellerator reactor. The stellerator is really cool, and an alternative to a tokamak reactor. Tokamak is the doughnut shaped reactor, and it has a problem where the plasma near the outer circumference has less magnetic confinement. The stellerator is similar, but confines the plasma to a ribbon and folds it over on itself in a mobius-like arrangement. I used to be really interested in this, b…

You know enough to say more. Say more!

I'm not that guy, but I can speak to what you're asking. I've followed Wendelstein 7-X for almost a decade.

Nuclear fusion occurs at extremely-high temperatures. As you heat your fusion fuel to sufficiently-high temperatures to allow fusion, the matter transitions into a plasma, which is great: plasmas react to electromagnetic fields. As such, a major challenge with achieving viable nuclear fusion is making a vessel capable of holding the fusion reaction. Because we can't create on-demand gravity wells, the next best option for confinement is using electromagnetic fields to hold the plasma in the air.

So, you now have an "electromagnetic bottle" capable of suspending a fusion reaction above the reactor's walls. Now, you have another issue: how do you ensure the fuel will sufficiently mix to sustain a fusion reaction? One approach is to move the plasma in a loop. The topologically-simplest method to accomplish this loop is the torus. Such a plasma-confinement device is called a tokamak. A tokamak uses two magnetic fields, torodial and polodial, to accomplish its task. The torodial field is driven through the plasma to push it forward, while the polodial field pulls the plasma in toward the center. Proper balance of these fields will allow the plasma to circuit the vessel following a helical path, achieving confinement.

However, driving two separate magnetic fields is energy-intensive, and a successful fusion reactor will want to minimize its own power consumption to maximize the amount available for external usage. Enter the stellarator. The stellarator also drives the plasma around in a circle, it but uses a single magnetic field. How? It "tricks" the plasma into "thinking" there's only one magnetic field by using computer-optimized magnets with highly-complex geometries. This provides stellarators with a major engineering advantage over tokamaks and is a primary reason Wendelstein 7-X would have chosen it.

With the confinement vessel topology largely identified, the next main step is to figure out how to build a vessel able to contain a sustained fusion reaction. For context, fusion experiments traditionally only operate on timescales of milliseconds to maybe a second. The reason? Fusion occurs at millions of degrees, and keeping the reaction vessel cool, ensuring a continuous supply of fuel, and dealing with reaction "exhaust" (e.g., alpha particles) and stray high-energy neutrons from the common deuterium-tritium reaction (which irradiate your reactor walls because neutrons don't react with electomagnetic fields) is a major, major engineering challenge. Any operational, net-positive fusion reactor must be able to operate for days, weeks, and months on end.

What Wendelstein 7-X has been attempting to do for years is demonstrate that building such a vessel is even possible. Their overall goal is to sustain a fusion reaction for about 30 minutes. Such a timescale will show a proof-of-concept system which enables sustained fusion reactions to occur.

Currently, the preferred fuel is deuterium-tritium because the fuel is generally available and has an attainable fusion temperature. The stray neutron issue can be mitigated by lining reactor walls with lithium to breed tritium fuel. Even better is to use the helium3-helium3 reaction, which completely annihilate to produce pure energy as the output (welcome to e=mc^2, enjoy your stay). The main holdups are: (1) the reaction occurs at much higher temperatures than deuterium-tritium, and (2) he(lium)3 is quite scarce on Earth. Once Wendelstein 7-X shows how to engineer a proper confinement vessel at a "lower" temperature, you can then work on the higher temperature levels required for he3-he3. Also, he3 is plentiful on the surface of the moon, so mining the surface of the moon will be performed to obtain the required fuel, which is the fundamental premise of the movie "Moon".

Someone asked for information on electromagnetic plasma containment folding. I recommend reading up on magnetohydrodynamics (MHD). It's the mathematical and physical foundation of your interest.

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