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Nick Cave on ChatGPT and the creative process

theredhandfiles.com

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Re: Nick Cave on ChatGPT and the creative process

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying people who make "true art" should not be doing it for reward, or should not be as interested in money as non-artists? This is enormously reductive and is quite a modern idea. Most artists in history have made art for gain. It is a bold strategy to suggest that Nick Cave is confused by ideas of income and art. I don't care who you are: on this topic, Cave is almost 100% certainly better informed than yo…

Maybe Nick Cave should stop using computers too since they simplify the "true creation process". Or just disregard tools altogether and return to his destiny as denoted by nominative determinism.

Maybe this is a strawman argument unworthy of serious discussion.

Re: Nick Cave on ChatGPT and the creative process

#82
When I first used a modern VR headset, it felt so real to me that I felt like I was truly in the virtual space. It was an amazing and memorable feeling.

After several years of using one intermittently, it doesn't feel any more real than my monitor. My brain taught itself to see all the elements that make it artificial, and while it's still amazing as a technological feat, it no longer feels real at all.

I feel that a similar thing happened to me with the latest round of generative AI improvements. A year ago they felt amazing and almost sentient. Now my brain has started to internalize the patterns in the output, and while I'm still impressed and amazed by the technological prowess and data summarization utilities, it no longer feels amazing.

I think if AI is to truly get a foothold in art, it would first need to have a capacity to generate a new voice and viewpoint and imbue its work with the kind of fresh meaning that separates a good piece of writing from a boring or empty genre work. That said, I do think AI is even now ready to make inroads in 'boring or empty genre work'. When I ask AI to write something, while I don't see artistic merit in the output, I do see the same level of merit that I see in a mediocre human written piece.

I guess if I am scared by anything, it is this: if a great human artist often begins their life building/selling boring and derivative works, and AI displaces the market for paying humans for boring and derivative works, then will fewer artists have an opportunity to first wallow in, and then transcend, mediocrity?

If that is true, then I suppose I am worried, and I understand where Nick Cave is coming from.

Re: Nick Cave on ChatGPT and the creative process

#83
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying people who make "true art" should not be doing it for reward, or should not be as interested in money as non-artists? This is enormously reductive and is quite a modern idea. Most artists in history have made art for gain. It is a bold strategy to suggest that Nick Cave is confused by ideas of income and art. I don't care who you are: on this topic, Cave is almost 100% certainly better informed than yo…

Most artists make next to nothing on their art. A vanishingly small portion can live off it, and fewer uetearn well. The number is probably higher for the elite, most renowned artists, and it might well benefit society to ensure a portion of the best can live of it, but in many places that is already hard enough that a substantial portion of the ability of even elite artists to live off their art often comes down to…

Throughout the history of the last two millennia or so, most artists will have made art for patronage, for direct reimbursement (artisanal objects that happen to be art, or for the church or some noble) or for barter.

There will have been very few serious artists in history who could afford to do it for the love, because art materials cost money, and time making non-functional art is time not earning enough or working enough to live.

Art as a pastime is a very modern invention, surely. That is

Re: Nick Cave on ChatGPT and the creative process

#84
post #52

A hack songwriter looks at other songs, mixes them together, and writes some songs. A true artist communicates something about their own experience of life through their songs (still taking inspiration in techniques of course from previous songs -- nothing is completely original!) ChatGPT is currently the ultimate hack songwriter. It has read every song and can remix to create new stuff like you wouldn't believe. But…

Funny you should say this. See https://www.theredhandfiles.com/originality-hard-to-obtain/ “What else have you stolen?” I ask Warren. “Everything,” he says, “Absolutely, everything.”

Very nice.

Re: Nick Cave on ChatGPT and the creative process

#85
post #60

As a song writer who's tried to use ChatGPT to help with writing songs, what I realised in the end is that it's simply more effective to rely on your imagination. This isn't to say that ChatGPT isn't good at what it does, but at the end of the day, it's an abstraction over the creative process, and therefore not as useful as people might think. Because when you're creating something, ultimately it comes down with how…

Similar experience with using Midjourney, it isn't actually generating what I really want to create, it's generating something like it, but when I'm drawing, I fee a connection with the paper and I'm actually creating what I can see in my minds eye, and this is a really amazing feeling which I don't seem to be able to get the same way from prompting.

So it's kind of a wonderful thing but the experience of using it, and it's similar in that you could see the prompt and the generated art as a kind of pencil but from an enjoyment and expressive perspective it falls short.

Re: Nick Cave on ChatGPT and the creative process

#86

One way to view the use of LLMs is by purpose or intended outcome. Some examples include: * A user has in their brain a definite statement, thought, or concept they wish to translate to words-on-the-page. They use an LLM to explore different ways to express that definite statement/thought/concept. * A user has a question they then pose to the LLM, hoping that the LLM's answer is truthful/not-truthful/funny/interestin…

[deleted]

Re: Nick Cave on ChatGPT and the creative process

#87
Personally, what's fun is actually creating something, but the process is the fun part IMO. If you can just click a button and get something, there will be some type of dopamine hit that happens but it's not going to be the same type of hit that comes from spending 4 weeks building yourself a nice workbench.

Without a journey, there isn't much point to existence IMO.

Re: Nick Cave on ChatGPT and the creative process

#89

From the article: > ChatGPT is fast-tracking the commodification of the human spirit by mechanising the imagination. It renders our participation in the act of creation as valueless and unnecessary. That ‘songwriter ‘you were talking to, Leon, who is using ChatGPT to write ‘his’ lyrics because it is ‘faster and easier ,’is participating in this erosion of the world’s soul and the spirit of humanity itself and, to put…

I have been a professional writer for over 40 years. ChatGPT is useful, but I never come close to using it's unedited results, even as I use ever more advanced prompt sequences. But if you're new to something that ChatGPT can help you with, I don't see how it can be resisted. What value is there to you to not use it?

Re: Nick Cave on ChatGPT and the creative process

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not an artist, but many people refer to the creative part of making software as an “art”, so here’s a take. ChatGPT allows for rapid iteration of ideas. I have an idea, I get ChatGPT to flesh it out, I iterate. The value ChatGPT is providing is not to be the source of creativity, it’s in speeding up the process from idea to concrete implementation. It’s a tool. In software development and engineering more generally,…

Coding is not art, it is a learned and trained skill. Even though, I believe that the use of ChatGPT or any other AI assistant will eventually lead to the creation of inexperienced and unskilled generations of developers. Using AI to generate "art" will just kill human creativity. Not only will it do that, it will create a new normal, where this AI art will be viewed as standard. Just as we currently have an over-mon…

> Using AI to generate "art" will just kill human creativity.

Did the photograph “kill” art? I’m sure this has been asked before, but what is so fundamentally different about AI that puts it into a different category of tool? That’s my argument; not that software development is art, but that tools accelerate the act of creation.

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