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Nick Cave on ChatGPT and the creative process

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Re: Nick Cave on ChatGPT and the creative process

#41
post #18

From the article: > ChatGPT is fast-tracking the commodification of the human spirit by mechanising the imagination. It renders our participation in the act of creation as valueless and unnecessary. That ‘songwriter ‘you were talking to, Leon, who is using ChatGPT to write ‘his’ lyrics because it is ‘faster and easier ,’is participating in this erosion of the world’s soul and the spirit of humanity itself and, to put…

In my head, I keep making this comparison to photography. I like to take pictures. Usually, I take many, many -- hundreds -- of pictures for a project and I'll find one or two that I like most in that bunch. I think this is a pretty common practice in photography, euphemistically referred to as portfolio editing. I see a strong analogy between portfolio editing and operation of AI like ChatGPT. The camera and the AI…

Taking a picture is deterministic. You aim at something, configure the settings and the cells / CMOS will capture that light in the right manner. You can argue that autofocus and portrait-mode are eroding this but ultimately, if you, the human are not pointing at something good in the first place, well you’ll very likely not have a very good picture. I feel like with AI and a random seed you can ask a question of which you have added none of your own reflection into and it will produce something somewhat in the ballpark that may pass as real. I.e. you don’t even have to point the camera at anything good …

Edit: not to say you can’t use it as a muse or for inspiration, but it isn’t a prerequisite.

Re: Nick Cave on ChatGPT and the creative process

#42
post #18

From the article: > ChatGPT is fast-tracking the commodification of the human spirit by mechanising the imagination. It renders our participation in the act of creation as valueless and unnecessary. That ‘songwriter ‘you were talking to, Leon, who is using ChatGPT to write ‘his’ lyrics because it is ‘faster and easier ,’is participating in this erosion of the world’s soul and the spirit of humanity itself and, to put…

In my head, I keep making this comparison to photography. I like to take pictures. Usually, I take many, many -- hundreds -- of pictures for a project and I'll find one or two that I like most in that bunch. I think this is a pretty common practice in photography, euphemistically referred to as portfolio editing. I see a strong analogy between portfolio editing and operation of AI like ChatGPT. The camera and the AI…

How about instead of taking the camera, telling the AI to generate a statistically likely picture for you?

For me, a guy with a master of fine arts and a photographer, filmmaker and musician, the problem with AI isn't, that it is a automated process that creates stuff, but that the stuff it creates isn't usually the kind that will suprise yourself. My best pieces of music, film scenes and pictures always came from very special and memorable circumstances, or by tweaking a many factors for a long time, and by reflecting on the results a magnitude longer.

Beginner artists are already amazed at the fact that they managed to make a film, a drawing, a piece of music, a decent photograph. More advanced artists are much more about exploring the medium and figuring out what is possible.

My fear is that AI will make art much less personal and much less explorative. Or maybe it will just have the opposite effect? At the dawn of photography all the painters started to become abstract for a reason — why mimic, what the apparatus does better?

Re: Nick Cave on ChatGPT and the creative process

#43
post #18

From the article: > ChatGPT is fast-tracking the commodification of the human spirit by mechanising the imagination. It renders our participation in the act of creation as valueless and unnecessary. That ‘songwriter ‘you were talking to, Leon, who is using ChatGPT to write ‘his’ lyrics because it is ‘faster and easier ,’is participating in this erosion of the world’s soul and the spirit of humanity itself and, to put…

In my head, I keep making this comparison to photography. I like to take pictures. Usually, I take many, many -- hundreds -- of pictures for a project and I'll find one or two that I like most in that bunch. I think this is a pretty common practice in photography, euphemistically referred to as portfolio editing. I see a strong analogy between portfolio editing and operation of AI like ChatGPT. The camera and the AI…

You'll note that "photography" as an art has its own name and is considered a different art than painting or drawing. And if you took a photo and then said "I drew this", people would say you were lying.

So personally I have no problem with considering GPT stuff "art", but I think it should be considered a separate art form and given a different name.

Re: Nick Cave on ChatGPT and the creative process

#44

Sorry, the business side of art has already done this to artists. I recall a famous songwriter, unfortunately I cannot remember their name to prove this, who used free association word games to write songs. Because nonsense lyrics have helped propel otherwise mediocre songs to commercial success. He would write songs just by putting down words, free associating those words, until he had something that sounded interes…

If you’re thinking of Jeff Tweedy, it’s far more complicated than what you described.

Re: Nick Cave on ChatGPT and the creative process

#45

Sorry, the business side of art has already done this to artists. I recall a famous songwriter, unfortunately I cannot remember their name to prove this, who used free association word games to write songs. Because nonsense lyrics have helped propel otherwise mediocre songs to commercial success. He would write songs just by putting down words, free associating those words, until he had something that sounded interes…

Cedric Bixler Zavala of The Mars Volta would write lyrics by chopping up words and phrases from pages of medical books.

Re: Nick Cave on ChatGPT and the creative process

#46

From the article: > ChatGPT is fast-tracking the commodification of the human spirit by mechanising the imagination. It renders our participation in the act of creation as valueless and unnecessary. That ‘songwriter ‘you were talking to, Leon, who is using ChatGPT to write ‘his’ lyrics because it is ‘faster and easier ,’is participating in this erosion of the world’s soul and the spirit of humanity itself and, to put…

Humanity is just starting to get some competition.

Some people just can't deal with that.

If genuine, unaided human creativity is so great then AI generated creations should not be much of a challenge.

The sad fact, though, is that a lot of human creation is really not that good in comparison, or at the least is slow and expensive, while AI creations are often cheap, fast, and good -- you can have all three.

Re: Nick Cave on ChatGPT and the creative process

#47

From the article: > ChatGPT is fast-tracking the commodification of the human spirit by mechanising the imagination. It renders our participation in the act of creation as valueless and unnecessary. That ‘songwriter ‘you were talking to, Leon, who is using ChatGPT to write ‘his’ lyrics because it is ‘faster and easier ,’is participating in this erosion of the world’s soul and the spirit of humanity itself and, to put…

I see it as any other technology - you can either use it as a crutch or as a stepping stool. Inevitably we're going to see a lot of both, but the former are not going to get very far, because they're going to be vastly outshined by the latter.

Re: Nick Cave on ChatGPT and the creative process

#48

From the article: > ChatGPT is fast-tracking the commodification of the human spirit by mechanising the imagination. It renders our participation in the act of creation as valueless and unnecessary. That ‘songwriter ‘you were talking to, Leon, who is using ChatGPT to write ‘his’ lyrics because it is ‘faster and easier ,’is participating in this erosion of the world’s soul and the spirit of humanity itself and, to put…

Takes like this confuse me. ChatGPT is not stopping anyone from making art. It may stop you from profiting off of your artistic labors. Though, if you need a profit motive to make art, were you really making anything truly expressive and creative to begin with?

We're seeing the same thing with the actors and writers striking. Sorry folks, if you're making me choose between embracing neoluddism or living with some artsy folks not having their dream job, I'm going to pick you being out of a job. I do not care that background actors are going to be replaced by AI and I do not care that AI is going to let 1 writer do the work of 5. Background acting is not anyone's passion and writing predictable soapy sitcom stories is probably not anyone's passion, either.

AI is going to give us better creative work not because AI will become super creative, but because people who actually have creative thoughts worth expressing will just do that instead of being crowded out by humans chasing the lowest common denominator. Now we have computers chasing the lowest common denominator, something they are very good at, and we have humans who will create when they feel compelled to create, not because they want to make money but because their creativity compels them to act, make, and do.

If a songwriter is being replaced by an AI, their skills are not something we're going to miss. Sorry, not sorry. Artistic sensibilities have arguable never been the driver of what music is popular and I don't see the issue in having AI replace the bubblegum rubberstamp dime-a-dozen trash that the modal artists must produce to make money. Again, now you are totally outmatched by the AI and you can actually focus on creating an authentically human work without being distracted by the needs of industry. If there is no market for that then it is not because of AI but because of our own preferences.

The "human spirit" is just a story we tell ourselves to justify our dominion over everything we see. I'd be more than happy to see it die. Humanism is great if you're a human, but life is moving in other directions and we can either adapt to the notion that our primate brains aren't magical engines of wonder or die alongside our brittle egos.

Re: Nick Cave on ChatGPT and the creative process

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe Nick Cave should stop using computers too since they simplify the "true creation process". Or just disregard tools altogether and return to his destiny as denoted by nominative determinism.

The difference is huge. ChatGPT is not a tool. It is a creation designed to replace usage of tools to build products, with already finished products.

Havent had a single interaction with ChatGPT where I didnt have to refine its answer. And I'm talking about simple programming topics not making real art or grammy award winning songs.

Re: Nick Cave on ChatGPT and the creative process

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, society is set up now so that the ONLY thing people CAN do is go after money. It was pushed hard in that direction by tech companies like Google, Microsoft, and Facebook because they wanted to maximize pure short-term profit by sucking life out of people. There was a time in history where you COULD create real art and make a decent living out of it. Now, AI has set up the ultimate PRISONER'S DILEMMA (…

> There was a time in history where you COULD create real art and make a decent living out of it. Honest question, is that actually true? Historically, professional art always struck me as the domain of the rich, the starving artist, or the person taking commissions for the rich.

There have been times in history (middle ages? Renessance?) where some artists were sponsored by rich person.

Rich person for whatever reason, thinking it worthwhile to pay for artists' expenses. Or house them, buy their works etc. So that artist could create art.

Modern day equivalent would be Patreon. But back then, usually 1, maybe a few sponsors. Or 1 rich dude sponsoring a small ensemble of artists. Just for... dunno. 'Social credit' / personal glory? Art lover? Bragging rights? Some kind of platonic or romantic relation between artist & sponsor? To leave something behind?

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