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Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

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Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#761

I am an outlier and minority here - WFH should have worked for me, but I realized the lack of control over snacking when at home, and a lack of discipline to take breaks between meetings to walk and be active. I gained 20 lbs over two years. When I’m in the office, both these problems don’t exist; in fact 1:1s become ‘walking 1:1s’. I feel more healthier; the commute back allows me to disconnect from work and decline…

I can relate, WFH for me

- As a lone single male, it pretty much meant I NEVER had to leave the house. Maybe once a month for groceries, but with doordash/instacart there were periods where I could spend 4+ months cooped up inside. And as the former implies, I also ate out a lot. costing money and health. think I gaied around 40 lbs from 2020 to now.

- Work/life separation breaks down, as I had no friends to console to, no family to worry about, and overall a feeling of nothingness outside of games/movies. Sometimes I'd simply fall asleep in my office at 11PM and wake up at 6AM slumped over. There's nothing/no one else to take my mind off of work

- grooming went off the wayside. I wore so little clothes I could spend 4-6 weeks between laundry, felt no need to shower for weeks, and overall lack of will to do anything more than make sure my face isn't a mess. Even then I also just let my hair grow way out. There's no really to care about how I look otherwise.

- house goes out of care. There's usually small things I'd do when I get home from work to at least keep the place from going on an episode of Hoarders, but boxes can stack up and dust gathered very easily when all I really did was walk from room to office to room.

It felt like being a NEET, but I was still working and not really even enjoying much media (I didn't really watch much anime since the pandemic and I used to be a seasonal watcher). Worst of both worlds?

I started this year trying to make myself go out at least once a week, but even pre-pandemic I was feeling this sense of loneliness. Even post pandemic I can feel the effects being worse off compared to 2019.

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#762

People who like WFH will never want to return to the office unless perhaps the office is a 5 minute walk from home (they may be forced to, but they won't want to). For many people the time and cost savings of avoiding a daily commute cannot be offset by a nicer office. Those who are happy to return to the office in general are those who do not like WFH and prefer more contacts and a change of scenery. A nicer office…

very relevant thread. I stepped in my work office building for the very first time in years (switched jobs mid-pandemic). I spent 2 hours 16 mins in my car burning fossil fuel that I paid out of pocket, extra 40 mins prepping and unwinding, consumed more sugar and caffeine than I usually would working from home, re-scheduled a meeting because of the commute and feel more tired.

Its not good for the environment, bad for my company and terrible for me.

It's clear, forcing a commute is an implicit paycut.

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#763

I love working from home as much as everyone else here (seemingly) but I don't think people are fully appreciating how damaging not talking to people in meat space is likely to be long-term. We are embodied/energetic creatures and that energy is not exchanging the same way online (sorry if that sounds woo but it's true!). More so for the younger people, let's not forgot some of whom have never worked with people much…

This is a modern requirement of having to talk to people other than your family and friends. If you were a farmer or shepherd or fisherman or … 50 years ago, to whom would you talk during the day and work? Probably noone. You would just talk to your family when back at home.

>If you were a farmer or shepherd or fisherman or … 50 years ago, to whom would you talk during the day and work?

Co-workers? their boss? some entity of the company they are employed by?

Are these farmers/fishermen working solo? it could be their family, but generally in such a situation their family is also employing teenage labor in the form of offspring.

>You would just talk to your family when back at home.

how does that work when you have no family? In the classic times you'd also gather around at a bar to discuss the day with strangers. That doesn't quite work out so well in modern urban environments where even bars come in as groups.

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#764

I love working from home as much as everyone else here (seemingly) but I don't think people are fully appreciating how damaging not talking to people in meat space is likely to be long-term. We are embodied/energetic creatures and that energy is not exchanging the same way online (sorry if that sounds woo but it's true!). More so for the younger people, let's not forgot some of whom have never worked with people much…

Other than 1 or 2 individuals from previous jobs I've never in my life felt social fulfillment from colleagues. Even those 2 people I haven't spoken to in a long, long time and in fact only remembered they existed because I'm writing this post. As far as social situations go, colleagues rank somewhere near the bus driver I greet every morning in terms of how much fulfillment they give me.

Meanwhile, the only people in 6 years of work in this town I managed to keep talking to in more than one occasion (outside of work) are my co-workers. And I was trying to go to 2-3 meetups a week pre-COVID. Nothing stuck.

If I graduated amidst COVID, I may legitimately not have anyone to talk to.

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#765
post #749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can be broke and upper class; rich and 'working'. Economists/historians/et al. call it socioeconomic class: I think the latter dominates in the US, and the former in the UK. If I (British) thought of or described someone as being of a particular class, it would be far more a comment on their actions or behaviour than their job or salary. To the point that it's weird to me how it's discussed here when we basically…

Good point. I am aware of the differences between social class as it is in the UK and economic class. I should have specified I'm talking about American-style economic class. In the US, working class tends to mean people in food service, retail sales, low-skill manual labor, people relying on gig work, and some very low-level white-collar workers like secretaries. Upper class are basically the very few people for who…

> Good point. I am aware of the differences between social class as it is in the UK and economic class.

I think traditional concepts of social class count for a lot less in the UK of 2023 than they did in the UK of 1973. But wealth counts for just as much, even more.

Were Rishi Sunak's parents "upper class"? And yet, he'd surely be a far more valuable social connection to have than Baron Forgettable who happens to be the King's fifth cousin. And I think that will remain true even when his prime ministership is over.

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#766

I love working from home as much as everyone else here (seemingly) but I don't think people are fully appreciating how damaging not talking to people in meat space is likely to be long-term. We are embodied/energetic creatures and that energy is not exchanging the same way online (sorry if that sounds woo but it's true!). More so for the younger people, let's not forgot some of whom have never worked with people much…

I simply do not get much if any of my human connection needs met by coworkers. I have a family, neighbors, close friends I see frequently and less close friends I see occasionally. A church, relationships based on volunteering, hobbies and interests, teens I mentor and their parents I shoot the shit with. Coworkers are so far down the list of priority socialization that my life isn't negatively affected by not intera…

> I have a family, neighbors, close friends I see frequently and less close friends I see occasionally

I guess some people have all the luck. By the time I graduated:

- my family was across the country

- neighbors have never been really friends

- close friends mostly went to San Fransico. No one was in my town.

- Meetups didn't form any relationships.

If there was no work I'd just be lonely, and not for the lack of trying.

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#768

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Private offices with doors that close were absolutely required and not open to negotiation." Where does this come from? It's something that sounds right, but then I look back at my parent's office jobs and pop culture from 20+ years ago and it doesn't line up. Open office spaces have been extremely common for a very very long time, with private offices reserved for higher level people.

Back in 2008 i worked at a Leibnitz institute in germany. First as a Wissenschafter and then as a Koordinator. In the first case I shard a closed door office with one other person. Each of us had a large desk, bookcase and great space. In the second case I had my own office with my own desk and even a table with two chairs for receiving people. I was pretty low in the institute food chain. Only the PhD students were…

Thats because those buildings have a different public budget than personnel in germany

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#769
post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 150k-250k analyst isn’t upper class. Nor is it really middle-class (although that would depend on the cost of living). It’s that weird in-between, where one still needs to earn a living and make even more money for someone else. A 25M / year CEO is far past "earning a living" and really only works because they want to.

This recent (and self-serving) tendency of reducing “class” to only the extremely wealthy and everyone else is reductive and obscures important economic dynamics. It’s ridiculous to treat a master plumber that owns a plumbing business as “bourgeoise” while treating an Amazon engineer who has tremendous human capital as being a “proletariat.” Even in Marx’s time, there was substantial debate about how to classify the…

If you want to get pedantic, we could more precisely define the upper-class as those who extract value from others, and the lower classes as those from which said value is extracted from.

Were we to push that to the extreme, the only upper-class at Goldman Sachs would be retirees, either as direct shareholders or as beneficiaries of some pension fund. Even if they were lower middle-class Americans living in an old aging house they can’t afford to fix.

That would be the Value Extraction definition of Class.

Others would argue that class is more diffuse, and that one’s class depends more on their family's history, where they went to school, and who they know, than on how much they have. Which is a valid point.

That would be a Social Capital definition of Class.

I doubt however that anyone would consider a street-sweeping former Emperor (eg Piyin), or some penniless heir to some old industry dynasty as still belonging to any sort of upper-class.

Meaning the actual definition actually is some fluid mix of the two. That and probably some other definitions I’m not even aware of.

> In the modern economy, capital owners are reliant on a class of non-fungible white collar workers that bring their own human capital.

It’s nothing modern. Capital owners always have, since the first scribe, and probably before that (see Japan’s former hordes of perpetually desk-bound samurai).

Still, let’s entertain the argument. I’ll use, and I’m truly sorry for that, a tired analogy.

In the modern world, many people are reliant on many different types of usually non-fungible pets and somewhat fungible, depending on who you ask, animals, for many different purposes. Some of which bring their own highly sought-after hard-earned skills.

Let’s limit ourselves to the oh so tired dog analogy.

A person and their dog have myriad common interests. Those interests are, in many cases, in opposition to those of many other people and animals. Even more so when said dog is considered a family member, serves as a guard dog, as a shepherd dog, or is specialised in drugs detection.

Does that make them equal? Does that change anything to the fact that one is extracting value from the other, and often only pays them back in dog food, usually made from our food industry’s literal scraps and refuse?

So yes, I agree with you: there’s no simple and definitely no simplistic definition of class.

I am still convinced however that, in the specific and limited context of the comment I was replying to, the one I used was good enough.

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