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Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

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Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree but I've been dealing with it for years now (since COVID) and nobody has seemed to be able to fix it.

Sure. Management stupidity and employee incompetence certainly wasn't a thing before COVID! I really like this new comic from Scott Adams called Dilbert [1] that gets a good laugh from how incompetent things have gotten since COVID! /s [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilbert

>Management stupidity and employee incompetence certainly wasn't a thing before COVID

problems change, and some problems get worse while others get better. No need to be snide, it's honestly a thing to consider when talking about these situations.

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#752

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> The CEO and analyst are both upper class Class can be more fine-grained than just lower/working-middle-upper People commonly talk about “upper middle class” vs “lower middle class”, and then I suppose there are even some people in between the two (middle middle class?) Well, in the same way there is surely lower upper class and upper upper class, and maybe even more levels than that. A person on an annual salary of…

There are other dimensions than number of millions ; money might be an universal measure, but people are different. Who is more upper class, a relatively impoverished Prince of the Holy Roman Empire or a billionaire by marriage and luck? Managers like the mentioned bank CEO, or someone who can rent them a house in the Hamptons because they have lived there for generations? An intellectual who has never really worked,…

> Who is more upper class, a relatively impoverished Prince of the Holy Roman Empire or a billionaire by marriage and luck?

I think Western society has been undergoing a transition between two different class systems. (Marxists would surely connect this with the economic transitions from feudalism to mercantilism to early capitalism to late capitalism.)

In the mediaeval class system, class was determined by social status which was predominantly inherited, and money alone was not enough to move from the bottom to the top. A person born poor might acquire great wealth, but they would still be locked out of the nobility/aristocracy, unless the monarch deigned to ennoble them. An impoverished baron socially outranked the far wealthier merchant who was born into poverty and worked/lucked their way out of it.

In the late capitalist class system–all that really matters is your net worth. Everything else is secondary. Who cares who your parents were or where you come from once you have a billion dollars to your name – and if a billionaire is excluded socially, it is very likely due to something about their individual behaviour (see e.g Kanye–although I suppose he's an ex-billionaire now), rather than their family background in itself.

The transition between the two systems has been ongoing; it still hasn't completely finished, but we've moved a lot closer to the late capitalist system, and a lot further away from the mediaeval system, than we were 50 or 100 years ago. I don't think the transition proceeds at the same rate in every country either – I think the UK retains more of the old class system than most other places (although even in the UK it is a lot weaker than it used to be); it also arguably retains some strength in the northeastern US, although not to the same extent as the UK.

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#753

Nope. My previous employer tried this in ~2021 with the intention of demanding a full RTO as soon as they possibly could after decades of being a cubicle farm. I immediately left for a company that adapted to remote-first and never looked back My commute time has turned into workout and cooking time, (as expected I'm in the best shape of my life,) my only coworker is my spouse and best friend, I get to live closer to…

>my only coworker is my spouse and best friend

TBH that's the part that scares me. I feel this is yet another avenue of socialization that is closing down in modern young adult life. People kept saying that the best place post college to meet friends is at work, and now some industries are going the direction where work may not even have coworkers in your area.

So where now if you don't drink? Hope to hit it off in some meetup with a person who shows up once? Community service simply so you aren't stuck in the house 24/7?

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#754
post #674

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>> You're assuming that someone working from the Hamptons is as productive as working from a desk in the office or his own home. I highly doubt this is true and especially so for young junior employees. I've had co-workers in these situations for a long time. In theory there is no difference. But then... - suddenly you can barely hear someone on a conference call because they are on a 4G-tether on a beach, - or becau…

Blocking off the day makes sense because you want get work done. Meetings can wait until I'm at the office because I'm too distracted to get real work done in my flex-desk. Who cares if employee works at the beach? You need to provide value not appearance of value.

>> Blocking off the day makes sense because you want get work done.

I'm sure there are cases there it doesnt matter, but I was mentioning cases where teams need to work with each other and are paid to work with each other. I specifically mentioned Production Support. How can production support meetings "wait until they are back at the office?" From my standpoint, it doesnt matter where they are (home or office) but if they have no connectivity and cannot jump into troubleshooting meetings during business hours, i'm not sure how this works for numerous situations.

Through my career, i've been on the hot-seat as live applications have gone down. Imagine a DB is down or a pipeline is broken, and my DBA co-worker says "sure, lets take it up on Monday when I'm back". Note, I have no admin rights to the DB.

I had a k8s cluster run out of disk space. I had no admin rights to fix this. If the k8s admin decided he could take the meeting a day or days later, it would be a total disaster.

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#755

Earlier quoted context omitted.

upper middle class is the common term. or to use an older one: petit bourgeoisie

"petit bourgeoisie" used to mean "lower middle class".

No, it never meant that. "Middle class" is a USAmerican invention, and an incoherent one at that.

Class is defined by one's relationship to the means of production (e.g. whether you work in a factory, or own the factory where people work)

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#756
post #76

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The idea that employers need to give you everything you want is strange. They give you the least they can possibly get away with. Sure - some small subset of employers competing for the best employees will do this. But the average employer? I'm skeptical.

It baffles me that people think that employees should just put up with whatever horrible environment an employer produces and be grateful for the job. Even after employers have demonstrated time and time again that they have zero interest in the wellness of their employees aside from how it affects health insurance rates.

>It baffles me that people think that employees should just put up with whatever horrible environment an employer produces and be grateful for the job.

I don't think people do, but the issue is that they lack the bargaining power to do anything about it.

A tech worker making 6 figures? They aren't going to pushed around as easily as someone who is living paycheck to paycheck just for rent. they can forget to empathize for those who literally are chained to a job.

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#757
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that employers need to give you everything you want is strange. They give you the least they can possibly get away with. Sure - some small subset of employers competing for the best employees will do this. But the average employer? I'm skeptical.

> The idea that employers need to give you everything you want is strange. The working class, low class, and middle class are all tax cattle. We have to take ostensibly dangerous commutes on highways with people too tired/too rushed/too busy to care. We have to eat inside of a certain timeframe, respond chipper no matter the circumstances, and when they're done with us they just let us go in a "right-sizing". We are…

>Even without a union having enough people just walk out because the company doesnt respect them will crush the company. Rightly so.

it's a prisoner's dilemma, and the risk for a minimum wage worker walking out when it's not enough people is the worst case. they get fired, nothing changes, and it may even discourage others from trying.

You can only walk when you either have a next step or the result makes no difference. Many don't have that step and it's not QUITE so dire that food stamps are better than working. It's getting close, though.

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#758
post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" I'd rather take a 50% paycut than go back to the office." People should stop saying this. Otherwise it will soon be the standard to take a serious paycut for WFH. .

Your employer should actually pay you more to WFH. Aside from saving them rent on the office space, you should be able to expense several office-supply things that they would have provided previously. Office chair and desk, internet bill (pro-rated by usage), maybe printer ink.

You're neglecting to consider that many companies consider their office buildings to be a real estate investment, expecting big returns.

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#759

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it even improve marginally? I can see this being highly variable for the type of position / work. As a software developer the ability to schedule face time and use messenging for low-priority is way more productive than an unexpected door-knock that demands an immediate response. Apart from that, I was going to comment saying the exact same thing. Not having a commute is non-negotiable for me. That said, I have…

Even if it improves dramatically, so what? The point of life is not to provide your employer with unrestricted access to your time for their convenience.

>Even if it improves dramatically, so what?

depends on your life goals. If you're just minmaxing money and want to retire by 40-50 with time for the family or leisure, sure. You ideally want to minimize time working, and not necessarily maximize efficiency. If your goal is (personal) growth or expertise in a domain, that communication gap can potentially impact your growth, perhaps even cap you without outside study (which turns into work outside of work).

There's no right answer, you simply have to be honest about your end game.

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#760
post #749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always thought all those granular "upper lower upper class" and "middle lower upper class" and "upper middle upper lower middle class" distinctions were pretty pointless and mainly are for the people who care deeply about constructing a societal totem pole and placing everyone precisely somewhere on that totem pole. The huge class divides are not between retail workers, tradesmen and software developers, the div…

You can be broke and upper class; rich and 'working'. Economists/historians/et al. call it socioeconomic class: I think the latter dominates in the US, and the former in the UK. If I (British) thought of or described someone as being of a particular class, it would be far more a comment on their actions or behaviour than their job or salary. To the point that it's weird to me how it's discussed here when we basically…

Good point. I am aware of the differences between social class as it is in the UK and economic class. I should have specified I'm talking about American-style economic class.

In the US, working class tends to mean people in food service, retail sales, low-skill manual labor, people relying on gig work, and some very low-level white-collar workers like secretaries. Upper class are basically the very few people for whom work is optional. F500 CEOs, SVPs, billionaire investors, and so on. Their existing wealth grows at a rate that can sustain their and their family's standard of living indefinitely.

The rest is middle class, a very wide range from schoolteachers, to skilled tradesmen, to engineers, to university professors, to small business owners, to doctors and so on.

My point is that people are nit-picking when they say things like "Oh, but doctors are upper middle class and teachers are lower middle class and engineers are lower upper middle class and on and on and on. Distinction without a meaningful difference.

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