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Launch HN: Refine (YC S23) – Open-source platform for enterprise web apps

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Re: Launch HN: Refine (YC S23) – Open-source platform for enterprise web apps

#31

Post by zoogeny »

smt88 wrote: post #22
zoogeny wrote: post #17

I am a bit confused by these tools. Can someone analogize what they are doing here? It somehow reminds me of the Django admin capabilities but expanded to any Typescript base technologies? I have trouble wrapping my head around the use case for this. Is the target market existing businesses that already have APIs (probably as REST services), maybe some databases and they just want to quickly wire up some UI to it? It…

> To be honest, even in small startups I've worked at, cranking out admin dashboards using React was just so trivial that I can't imagine paying to make it slightly easier. I haven't tried Refine, but with Retool, we had non-developers able to build themselves functional admin tools in literally minutes. Writing new code, regardless of how great the React components are, just doesn't come close. I can do things with…

If this was a no-code solution I would agree. But the developers themselves are in this thread saying things like: "One of the key differences is our code-first preference over no-code, which distinguish Refine from the drag-drop style workflows of Retool, Appsmith, Tooljet, Budibase etc." Their github README has a short 75 line snippet that shows the React-ish code one needs to implement a basic dashboard for a generic REST service. One of the top comments was from an operations guy asking: "Why do I have to choose between next.js and Remix?" Clearly they are targeting this towards development teams to lessen their burden and not directly at support teams to roll their own. Choosing between next.js vs. Remix only makes sense to a developer.

As for "2-3 hours" in no-code vs. "1 week" for a developer, I might challenge that. In many cases if a support team (sales, customer service, marketing, etc.) asked a product team to build something custom for them then they are going to quote product development timelines. However, Most places where I've worked where admin tooling was expected and high-quality the admin features were part of the product feature development. In general, most functionality would be added in some small part of the feature dev time. For example, a 2 week sprint for a new product feature might include 1 day of adding functionality related to that feature to the admin. That is to say, your 1 week quote is almost definitely not the time it would take to add the features but a block of time the product team is quoting to make you go away. That is an org problem, not a technology problem. With Refine, I don't think you will bypass this problem since you will need someone capable of using at least React and whatever stack you configure the tool with.

Re: Launch HN: Refine (YC S23) – Open-source platform for enterprise web apps

#33

Post by zoogeny »

molsongolden wrote: post #30
zoogeny wrote: post #17

I am a bit confused by these tools. Can someone analogize what they are doing here? It somehow reminds me of the Django admin capabilities but expanded to any Typescript base technologies? I have trouble wrapping my head around the use case for this. Is the target market existing businesses that already have APIs (probably as REST services), maybe some databases and they just want to quickly wire up some UI to it? It…

Cranking out an admin dashboard in react then also means supporting an admin dashboard. The dev is now on the hook for user issues, additional feature requests, hey can you just add this other field, etc… The dev is interrupted and distracted from other work while the other internal team is slowed down and blocked waiting for the dev to clear their tickets. If you have semi-technical users (can muddle through generat…

My first point, which I elaborated on in another reply to my comment, is that this makes sense for tools that are completely no-code. Refine brags about being developer first. Their example on github is a 75 line React-ish script. So, someone is writing, testing, deploying code. If that isn't your dev team, then who is managing that process and supporting it when someone inevitably borks it?

My second point is that even no-code tools tend to require developer support sooner or later. What I've noticed for admin tooling is that it often works best when it is driven by the product team. For example, customer support requests comes in which requires devs to stop working, investigate the issue, manually fix up data where necessary, etc. Devs hate doing this. Give the dev the ability to add the functionality to the admin and they often will, just to make the support requests go away. If you take away the admin from the product team then there is more friction in this path.

I will admit however, that the quality of life improvements demanded by the support teams often go un-attended. But I don't see how Refine will help this go away if it requires someone familiar with next.js/React, Ant/MaterialUI, etc. to make changes.

Re: Launch HN: Refine (YC S23) – Open-source platform for enterprise web apps

#34

Post by mrcwinn »

codegeek wrote: post #32

"Retool for Enterprise" I assume you have no ties to Retool but using it to explain your product ? Sounded like it is a product offered by Retool so you might want to rethink that.

Agreed, really bizarre. Confusing because most people have never heard of Retool. Potentially misleading because to some it implies either a relationship or a very icky gimmick.

Re: Launch HN: Refine (YC S23) – Open-source platform for enterprise web apps

#35

Post by fakedang »

I once tried a Refine tutorial made by the Refine team, hosted on their website, when it was suggested as an alternative dashboard maker to Retool. I ended up being confused even more, so I went back to Retool.

I'm a noob. Retool can be used by a noob. Your tool can't, so it's not a Retool. That's just the bitter truth.

Re: Launch HN: Refine (YC S23) – Open-source platform for enterprise web apps

#36

Post by kika »

annexrichmond wrote: post #16

One suggestion, as someone who is an Infra engineer and doesn't know frontend too well anymore, the first step in the demo asks me to "Select your React platform" I don't know what that means, and what the implication of choosing between Vite, Remix, or Next.js -- it's meaningless to me.

ha-ha, brother, I feel you. Infra engineer (VP last position) and built an app with Refine. I was exactly in your position not a long time ago. I tried to choose "The Best Framework Ever" and made a lot of mistakes, and at the end, if you don't know frontend go with the flow: React + Next.js. Not because they are Best Ever, but because the majority of content online is dedicated to these frameworks. StackOverflow, ChatGPT, a friend who speaks frontend, etc.

I did some work as part of my consultancy, had data left and decided to try my hands at frontend. Oh, boy, I think it was a mistake, but it was a lot of fun, will do again. https://cloudprice.io

Re: Launch HN: Refine (YC S23) – Open-source platform for enterprise web apps

#37

Post by KnlnKS »

frankgrecojr wrote: post #27
foxbee wrote: post #19

Congratulations and welcome to the open source low code club: Budibase https://github.com/Budibase/budibase Appsmith https://github.com/appsmithorg Tooljet https://github.com/ToolJet

Superblocks https://www.superblocks.com/

I don't think Superblocks is open source.

Re: Launch HN: Refine (YC S23) – Open-source platform for enterprise web apps

#38

Post by lovasoa »

There is a lot of activity in this space, and I think it's a good thing.

Other very similar but less code-heavy solutions include appsmith, tooljet, or budibase.

In the same spirit, but SQL-only instead of based on javascript, I am currently working on https://sql.ophir.dev . It also allows building entire data-centric applications and internal tools very quickly, but without having to think about things like "remix", "vite", or "next.js", which sound like chinese to most non-developers.

Re: Launch HN: Refine (YC S23) – Open-source platform for enterprise web apps

#39

Post by hiatus »

kika wrote: post #36
annexrichmond wrote: post #16

One suggestion, as someone who is an Infra engineer and doesn't know frontend too well anymore, the first step in the demo asks me to "Select your React platform" I don't know what that means, and what the implication of choosing between Vite, Remix, or Next.js -- it's meaningless to me.

ha-ha, brother, I feel you. Infra engineer (VP last position) and built an app with Refine. I was exactly in your position not a long time ago. I tried to choose "The Best Framework Ever" and made a lot of mistakes, and at the end, if you don't know frontend go with the flow: React + Next.js. Not because they are Best Ever, but because the majority of content online is dedicated to these frameworks. StackOverflow, Ch…

I tried to use the site you mentioned at the end of your post, but when I tried to add an ec2 instance (searching for ec2 resource) I got a 500 error "Error talking to backend server: 500".

Re: Launch HN: Refine (YC S23) – Open-source platform for enterprise web apps

#40

Post by erenererkalkan »

majestic5762 wrote: post #28

Why do people keep comparing refine with nocode tools like windmill or tooljet? Refine just scaffolds your codebase, gives you a good start and has some really cool hooks for common operations like auth / data management / tables etc. I use it for my SaaS and it's great (though they never replied to any of the enquires i made for enterprise). Once you scaffold the project, then you're on your own.

You've captured Refine's purpose perfectly – it's all about scaffolding your codebase and providing handy hooks for tasks like auth and data management. We're thrilled to hear that it's been a great fit for your SaaS needs.

We sincerely appreciate your understanding. While we regret any previous oversight in responding to your enterprise inquiries, we're actively addressing all incoming applications now. Your interest matters a lot to us, and we're working to ensure a smoother experience.

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