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Launch HN: Refine (YC S23) – Open-source platform for enterprise web apps

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Re: Launch HN: Refine (YC S23) – Open-source platform for enterprise web apps

#21

Post by civan »

ayewo wrote: post #2

Congrats on the launch! How does your product compare to Retool and other products in the space including the OSS ones (Appsmith, Windmill, Tooljet etc)?

At Refine, we try to take a fresh approach to a space with very strong existing players, as you mentioned. Our philosophy is keeping the developer-centric focus and provide the best experience possible to make boring enterprise CRUD apps fun to build.

One of the key differences is our code-first preference over no-code, which distinguish Refine from the drag-drop style workflows of Retool, Appsmith, Tooljet, Budibase etc.

Instead of offering a fixed set of pre-made components, Refine outputs a real React project with collections of helper hooks and providers. The "headless" architecture enables developers to integrate any preferred UI framework or custom design, thereby maintaining the highest level of customization and styling options.

This level of flexibility fits use-cases like complex admin panels, SAAS interfaces and B2B portals rather then single-page internal tools which require little or no customizations.

Re: Launch HN: Refine (YC S23) – Open-source platform for enterprise web apps

#22

Post by smt88 »

zoogeny wrote: post #17

I am a bit confused by these tools. Can someone analogize what they are doing here? It somehow reminds me of the Django admin capabilities but expanded to any Typescript base technologies? I have trouble wrapping my head around the use case for this. Is the target market existing businesses that already have APIs (probably as REST services), maybe some databases and they just want to quickly wire up some UI to it? It…

> To be honest, even in small startups I've worked at, cranking out admin dashboards using React was just so trivial that I can't imagine paying to make it slightly easier.

I haven't tried Refine, but with Retool, we had non-developers able to build themselves functional admin tools in literally minutes.

Writing new code, regardless of how great the React components are, just doesn't come close. I can do things with Retool in 2-3 hours that used to take a week or more of a senior React dev's time. It's at least one order of magnitude of difference, maybe more.

Re: Launch HN: Refine (YC S23) – Open-source platform for enterprise web apps

#23

Post by detinho »

zoogeny wrote: post #17

I am a bit confused by these tools. Can someone analogize what they are doing here? It somehow reminds me of the Django admin capabilities but expanded to any Typescript base technologies? I have trouble wrapping my head around the use case for this. Is the target market existing businesses that already have APIs (probably as REST services), maybe some databases and they just want to quickly wire up some UI to it? It…

I worked at a startup that had many internal tools for solving small problems using Retool. One frontend guy even added a "diff" component so we could compare json payloads and manually edit them.

I have to admit that it's not the best of the worlds, but for small, focused internal interfaces that call some APIs, it can serve well.

Don't know about this new tool, but talking of retool itself, I also don't see it being used for a full fledged customer facing application.

Re: Launch HN: Refine (YC S23) – Open-source platform for enterprise web apps

#24

Post by omeraplak »

annexrichmond wrote: post #16

One suggestion, as someone who is an Infra engineer and doesn't know frontend too well anymore, the first step in the demo asks me to "Select your React platform" I don't know what that means, and what the implication of choosing between Vite, Remix, or Next.js -- it's meaningless to me.

Oops, you're absolutely right. The frontend ecosystem is quite complex, and the entry barrier for engineers working in other roles is getting a little higher every day. Perhaps by default, Vite should be used, and Remix or Next.js alternatives should be shown for advanced frontend developers. Thank you so much; we will definitely improve this area.

Re: Launch HN: Refine (YC S23) – Open-source platform for enterprise web apps

#25

Post by debarshri »

detinho wrote: post #23
zoogeny wrote: post #17

I am a bit confused by these tools. Can someone analogize what they are doing here? It somehow reminds me of the Django admin capabilities but expanded to any Typescript base technologies? I have trouble wrapping my head around the use case for this. Is the target market existing businesses that already have APIs (probably as REST services), maybe some databases and they just want to quickly wire up some UI to it? It…

I worked at a startup that had many internal tools for solving small problems using Retool. One frontend guy even added a "diff" component so we could compare json payloads and manually edit them. I have to admit that it's not the best of the worlds, but for small, focused internal interfaces that call some APIs, it can serve well. Don't know about this new tool, but talking of retool itself, I also don't see it bein…

Retool and others are internal application platforms. The concept exists since the dawn on computer. SAP, IBMs of the world always had one offering like this.

You always need an internal platform may be for seeing the order status of the shipped product or some customer data etc. The consumer of the tool is a customer service agent or an internal employee etc. These tools does not have to be perfect , they have to be functional.

It has always been a huge market as it saves ton of money for an org. These days as building UI and APIs have become democratized, the market for internal applications platform have become very competitive.

Re: Launch HN: Refine (YC S23) – Open-source platform for enterprise web apps

#26

Post by omeraplak »

foxbee wrote: post #19

Congratulations and welcome to the open source low code club: Budibase https://github.com/Budibase/budibase Appsmith https://github.com/appsmithorg Tooljet https://github.com/ToolJet

Here's what sets Refine apart: we're all about getting hands-on with the code, rather than relying solely on drag-and-drop like some other tools do, such as Retool, Appsmith, Tooljet, Budibase, and others. Instead of just giving you a set of pre-made building blocks, Refine goes the extra mile and creates a complete React project for you. This project comes packed with useful hooks and providers that make your work smoother.

We also have this 'headless' feature that lets developers seamlessly blend in their favorite UI framework or their own custom designs without any hassle. This flexibility is particularly great for things like complex admin panels, SAAS interfaces, and B2B portals. On the other hand, if you're working on simpler tools for internal use – you know, the ones that don't need a lot of tweaking – Refine might offer more complexity than necessary.

Re: Launch HN: Refine (YC S23) – Open-source platform for enterprise web apps

#27

Post by frankgrecojr »

foxbee wrote: post #19

Congratulations and welcome to the open source low code club: Budibase https://github.com/Budibase/budibase Appsmith https://github.com/appsmithorg Tooljet https://github.com/ToolJet

Superblocks https://www.superblocks.com/

Re: Launch HN: Refine (YC S23) – Open-source platform for enterprise web apps

#28

Post by majestic5762 »

Why do people keep comparing refine with nocode tools like windmill or tooljet? Refine just scaffolds your codebase, gives you a good start and has some really cool hooks for common operations like auth / data management / tables etc. I use it for my SaaS and it's great (though they never replied to any of the enquires i made for enterprise). Once you scaffold the project, then you're on your own.

Re: Launch HN: Refine (YC S23) – Open-source platform for enterprise web apps

#29

Post by sdesol »

omeraplak wrote: post #24
annexrichmond wrote: post #16

One suggestion, as someone who is an Infra engineer and doesn't know frontend too well anymore, the first step in the demo asks me to "Select your React platform" I don't know what that means, and what the implication of choosing between Vite, Remix, or Next.js -- it's meaningless to me.

Oops, you're absolutely right. The frontend ecosystem is quite complex, and the entry barrier for engineers working in other roles is getting a little higher every day. Perhaps by default, Vite should be used, and Remix or Next.js alternatives should be shown for advanced frontend developers. Thank you so much; we will definitely improve this area.

Something else people may want to consider is the community health. Vite, Remix and Next.js are all extremely healthy, but Next.js is currently in a league of its own. You can see the community information for all three at:

https://devboard.gitsense.com/vitejs/vite

https://devboard.gitsense.com/remix-run/remix

https://devboard.gitsense.com/vercel/next.js

The only other project that I've seen with greater engagement than next.js on GitHub is Microsoft's vscode.

Full Disclosure: This is my tool.

Re: Launch HN: Refine (YC S23) – Open-source platform for enterprise web apps

#30

Post by molsongolden »

zoogeny wrote: post #17

I am a bit confused by these tools. Can someone analogize what they are doing here? It somehow reminds me of the Django admin capabilities but expanded to any Typescript base technologies? I have trouble wrapping my head around the use case for this. Is the target market existing businesses that already have APIs (probably as REST services), maybe some databases and they just want to quickly wire up some UI to it? It…

Cranking out an admin dashboard in react then also means supporting an admin dashboard. The dev is now on the hook for user issues, additional feature requests, hey can you just add this other field, etc… The dev is interrupted and distracted from other work while the other internal team is slowed down and blocked waiting for the dev to clear their tickets.

If you have semi-technical users (can muddle through generating SQL using stackoverflow) then unleashing them on a read-only DB copy with an app builder can be better for everyone involved.

Something like: “Hey I saw your ticket requesting a ‘user address’ field in the dashboard, do you want the mailing address or billing address? Lmk then I can probably add this today and it’ll go live in the next deploy” -> user instead adds the field on their own in Lots of additional use cases for other db interactions too where “let’s just spin up an internal admin panel in the app” can turn into days or weeks of getting input and now the design needs to be thought about and more stakeholders consulted vs. absolute basic functionality being stood up in Retool in a couple of hours. It’s sort of similar to presenting a wireframe instead of high-fidelity mock-ups

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