Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office • Hacker News Board

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#471

Post by tristor » Wed, Aug 09, 2023, 4:34 PM UTC

_fizz_buzz_ wrote: post #27

1970-01-01 wrote: post #3

At home, the benefits are extreme. Full office, private bath, private bed, private kitchen, garaged parking, asset security, and a 30 second commute. The next wave of office workers will want it better than this, or it simply won't work.

I think a lot of people on here have not been through a real recession. Not saying that everybody will go back to working in an office, but thinking one can simply demand anything only works when employment is high. During a recession, it is either social assistance or one takes the job that is available.

> During a recession, it is either social assistance or one takes the job that is available.

This is only true for people who don't have essential skills at a high level. For senior people, this won't be a problem. I cleaned up during the last two recessions, partly due to the prevalence of M&A activity during recessions, and was able to buy property cheap at auction post 2008 due to high foreclosure rates.

If you're just starting your career in a recession you're pretty screwed, if you're mid-career with a specialized skillset that is essential to core business function, you'll be completely fine.

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#472

Post by freetanga » Wed, Aug 09, 2023, 4:34 PM UTC

steveBK123 wrote: post #152

kjkjadksj wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See if I lived five minutes walk from work, I’d want to be in the office even less. Why sit there between meetings if I am five minutes from my home? Why bag a lunch when my kitchen is down the block? I’d probably show face at the obligate meetings then just go home for the day if I could.

What's funny is my boss, a total hardo, during latter stages of COVID did live 5 minutes from work. He used it to his advantage to show his face in the office, but rarely ever put in a full day. So sure he might show up on reports as being a 2-3x/week attender while others were doing 0-1, but many of those were morning-only, afternoon-only, or drop-ins for an in-person meeting of importance. Plus the occasional Frida…

I did what your boss did. WFH means that other people at your home might be there too, your wfh spot might be uncomfortable, and for me changing the scenery and getting some peace and quiet helped me productive. If I have a delicate call I don’t want my kids barging in telling me the Wifi is slow or my wife asking for dinner plans. Also, changing scenario helps me leaving problems at the door.

I really don’t get when people defend WFH as a Holy Grail and complain that are catalogued as lazy or freeloaders, only to become fierce critics and cataloging anyone who prefers going to the office as boot-lickers or mediocre middle-management (not your post SteveBK123, but a common attitude across this type of thread)

Everyone has different circumstances, different jobs, and our minds work differently. Let’s live and let live.

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#473

Post by Zetice » Wed, Aug 09, 2023, 4:34 PM UTC

deathanatos wrote: post #422

Zetice wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a common but incorrect belief that many small individual offices is a substantially more expensive buildout option.

Do you want to share with us how that belief is incorrect? It seems downright trivial to me that giving employees 4' desks packed side to side, back to back in rows requires less square footage and no walls, vs. an office. (And thus, the race for short-term gains in terms of less real estate trumped the long-term gains of SWE being able to think, and the race to the bottom began. It seems to me the costs of open-offi…

It's trivial to you that a few extra pieces of drywall and a handful of additional planks of wood would launch the cost of a buildout into the stratosphere?

Are you even reading the comments about studies showing the lost productivity (and therefore revenue) caused by open office spaces?

I didn't say it wouldn't cost one penny more than an open office, I said it wasn't wildly different. So many buildouts go halfway already with the tiny "phone rooms"; it's not in any way a budget buster to keep that idea going, except around a central shared space where meetings can take place.

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#474

Post by HWR_14 » Wed, Aug 09, 2023, 4:34 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #30

People who like WFH will never want to return to the office unless perhaps the office is a 5 minute walk from home (they may be forced to, but they won't want to). For many people the time and cost savings of avoiding a daily commute cannot be offset by a nicer office. Those who are happy to return to the office in general are those who do not like WFH and prefer more contacts and a change of scenery. A nicer office…

A private office is very much something that causes me to toggle between wanting to WFH and go into the office.

I hate open floorplans for working (fine if I'm walking around to get coffee or something). The biggest draw of WFH is that I don't have to put on headphones just to get some quiet time.

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#475

Post by Someone1234 » Wed, Aug 09, 2023, 4:35 PM UTC

adolph wrote: post #269

Veliladon wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no excess labor left in the system. We just went through a pandemic where, in the US, 2.4 million people just vanished from the labor force. If there is a recession it'll be a fully employed recession where the fed has to keep rates high because workers are fully employed and driving up wages while capital is crying uncle for lost profits and cheap money again.

> in the US, 2.4 million people just vanished from the labor force Not certain what you mean by vanished and where the 2.4M number came from. CDC says 1,136,473 died in the pandemic [0], although a significant portion were not likely members of the labor force. As it stands the number labor force members caught up to pre-pandemic numbers in August of 2022. [1] Feb 2020 164M Apr 2020 156M Aug 2022 164M Jul 2023 167M 0…

A lot of people retired or otherwise left the workforce. For example stay at home parents substantially increased and has stayed increased since. They're talking about people who left the workforce as in, no longer working/looking for work, you're talking about death exclusively.

The "Civilian Labor Force Level" isn't a relevant statistic because of its definition:

> Civilian Labor Force is the sum of civilian employment and civilian unemployment. These individuals are civilians (not members of the Armed Services) who are age 16 years or older, and are not in institutions such as prisons, mental hospitals, or nursing homes.

This, by definition, ignores people who exited the workforce. Here is the two charts you want to compare instead:

- 2019: https://www.bls.gov/cps/aa2019/cpsaat03.htm

- 2023 https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat03.htm

Specifically the "Not in labor force" column. That's a 4M loss. Out of those it is disproportionately women and older people.

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#476

Post by bee_rider » Wed, Aug 09, 2023, 4:35 PM UTC

nkozyra wrote: post #258

bee_rider wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making offices bigger and nicer will 1) mean fewer offices (per unit space, since they are bigger) 2) make people more likely to come in (since they are nicer) The point where those cross over seems like a good target, the highest number of happy office workers you can fit.

> 1) mean fewer offices (per unit space, since they are bigger) I think this is rather optimistic. If you give more square feet per employee and expect most/all to come in, the idea that it will mean fewer offices doesn't really add up.

Sure, that was the point of my comment. Making the offices bigger and nicer incentivizes people to come in, and reduces the building capacity, the goal should be to find the point where those two trends meet.

Of course, this is under the assumption the company wants people to come in willingly. They could just try and force their employees to come in, but people are really into work from home and good employees have more options.

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#477

Post by velosol » Wed, Aug 09, 2023, 4:35 PM UTC

ibejoeb wrote: post #408

philwelch wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyway, I'm thinking more about city dwellers who generally live in apartments. That’s a lifestyle that makes significantly less sense for remote workers in the long run though.

I'm with you. But a lot of people still want to live in the city and not go to the office. So, I'm suggesting that, for that cohort, dedicated private offices might be compelling. It means that you probably have a short commute; you can reclaim space in your home that might have been used for work; still live in city and have access to the social offerings there; and that you retain your privacy, and potentially have…

Higher end 'luxury' apartment buildings are frequently offering FCFS hoteling spaces and also rentable-as-you-need locking private spaces in the building as well as the modern phone booths in various parts of the buildings. If you have the income and that fits your desires you can have the city life and WFthe building you live in.

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#478

Post by heisnotanalien » Wed, Aug 09, 2023, 4:36 PM UTC

giraffe_lady wrote: post #247

heisnotanalien wrote: post #195

I love working from home as much as everyone else here (seemingly) but I don't think people are fully appreciating how damaging not talking to people in meat space is likely to be long-term. We are embodied/energetic creatures and that energy is not exchanging the same way online (sorry if that sounds woo but it's true!). More so for the younger people, let's not forgot some of whom have never worked with people much…

I simply do not get much if any of my human connection needs met by coworkers. I have a family, neighbors, close friends I see frequently and less close friends I see occasionally. A church, relationships based on volunteering, hobbies and interests, teens I mentor and their parents I shoot the shit with. Coworkers are so far down the list of priority socialization that my life isn't negatively affected by not intera…

Me me me. Other people exist apart from you!

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#479

Post by HWR_14 » Wed, Aug 09, 2023, 4:36 PM UTC

steveBK123 wrote: post #335

dustincoates wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I was curious, here's what I found on the Goldman CEO story: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2021-03-15/goldma...

To put some numbers on it "Associate" is a $150-$250K TC role vs DJ CEO making $25M.

In real numbers, it's a DJ ($5k) CEO ($25MM).

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#480

Post by ilaksh » Wed, Aug 09, 2023, 4:36 PM UTC

lampshades wrote: post #400

makingstuffs wrote: post #66

People need to stop trying to make things return to the original office model. Employees have realised we are equally as effective working from home and simply do not want to waste 2+ UNPAID hours of every day travelling to a corporate building for the sake of it. Nor do people want to spend £10+ a day on food and drinks which they have in their fridge, at home. Then there is also the social pressure of having to go…

I'm currently going through interviews and I think "collaboration" and communication is a real thing WFH is missing. You say that people can collaborate real-time from any corner of the planet but that hasn't been my experience. I have had two companies in the last few weeks (out of like 5) where my recruiter had no idea what stage of the process I was in because at some other point some recruiter had picked me up. I…

Those are process failures. People need to be responsible on some electronic communication medium and if they can't do that then they have to be fired.