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Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

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Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#261

At home, the benefits are extreme. Full office, private bath, private bed, private kitchen, garaged parking, asset security, and a 30 second commute. The next wave of office workers will want it better than this, or it simply won't work.

>>The next wave of office workers will want it better than this, or it simply won't work.

Workers want lots of things. Eg money. It's a negotiation.

One of the best tactics to learn about negotiations is negotiating on multiple fronts. Did salary negotiation turn sticky? Shift to negotiating for days off, or title... on the employer side.

One reason that this works is that negotiations have their rationale/objective side and partially contradicting other sides.

Case in point, the value of an employee, particularly a specific employee at a particular time... can be extremely high relative to alternatives. The alternative can easily be spend 12 months paying salary equivalent cost without the benefit.

Lots of positions are hard to adequately fill. 12 months of hiring, training, fail, rehiring, etc. That can easily be your mean alternative. It's very common that someone good leaves a team and 12 months later you have not really replaced them.

Yet... That reality rarely translates to practicality outside of executive comp. Investors certainly act this way, but hr doesn't. The rationale of rehiring cost and risk/difficulty of hiring are understood... but there are still limits to the number they are to put on this. It's never 300%. It's 10% or maybe 25%. Willingness to pay correlates to value, but it isn't proportional.

Anyway... WFH is currently an extremely irationale space. No one is being quite honest about it's full benefits, costs, risks, etc.

It's a benefit that neither employee or employer is usually comfortable about outright "negotiating," like offering less money for remote.

So... WFH is not-negotiable-for salary benefit that is #1 or #2 on both parties' priority list, second (often prior) to salary. Unlike other primary benefits, employees know who gets what.

Currently, it's all about perceived negotiating power.

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once you factor in taxes and commute expenses, 18% is practically break-even for even a well compensated employee, and that doesn't include the QOL factor. Indeed, middle management is the plight of modern civilization. They'll probably get replaced by AI soon enough.

Middle management will only be replaced by AI if fewer employees can do the same job. How many people do you think a VP-Eng or CTO can manage and still do the rest of the job?

Middle management's job seems like the easiest to replace by AI. They don't create any products directly, they only take orders from above and distribute them to below. They take feedback from below, possibly communicate it up, most likely communicate it laterally to another team, etc.

So, I think we'll see 5 middle managers replaced by 1 or 2 middle managers + AI. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#263

People who like WFH will never want to return to the office unless perhaps the office is a 5 minute walk from home (they may be forced to, but they won't want to). For many people the time and cost savings of avoiding a daily commute cannot be offset by a nicer office. Those who are happy to return to the office in general are those who do not like WFH and prefer more contacts and a change of scenery. A nicer office…

Yup. If I had a 10 minute or less commute and decent coffee at the office, I'd have no major objections. But I have a 45 minutes with zero traffic (1.5hr+ with traffic) commute and Seattle's Best essence of ashtray coffee.

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#264
post #9

Joel Spolesky has made this very point many times in the past: "Private offices with doors that close were absolutely required and not open to negotiation." I work on a Data Sci team that moved to an open floor plan in 2018. What happened? Anyone who needed to work intensively on a project would work from home instead of in the office.

I can tell what stage a project is in by which desks on my floor are empty. I go in to the office when I'm doing planning or review, but when I'm building I stay home where it's quiet and I won't be interrupted. Pretty much all of my department is the same way. I'm glad I have that freedom (and privilege) and from here on I probably won't consider jobs that don't give me that freedom.

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#266

People who like WFH will never want to return to the office unless perhaps the office is a 5 minute walk from home (they may be forced to, but they won't want to). For many people the time and cost savings of avoiding a daily commute cannot be offset by a nicer office. Those who are happy to return to the office in general are those who do not like WFH and prefer more contacts and a change of scenery. A nicer office…

> unless perhaps the office is a 5 minute walk from home

WFH for 2012-2023 here.

With our first home purchase in 2018 being on the smaller size, and the introduction of our first child to the family in 2021, I started keeping an eye on nearby options.

In March of 2023, a perfect little spot opened up that could support me and another employee in the same town. Pitched it to our small company, and now I have a dedicated office that is a 4 minute walk away.

Cannot stress enough how impactful those few minutes are (or more, if I need to decompress more than normal) are for separation of concern between home life and work, especially with young children in the picture.

Still get to enjoy lunch with stay-at-home wife and kiddo almost everyday.

It also shares property with a great pizzeria and one of the best taproom/bottleshops in town, which is a great perk beyond my waistline and liver... looking forward to taking the new bike to the nearby bike trail when it isn't 110° everyday.

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of people on here have not been through a real recession. Not saying that everybody will go back to working in an office, but thinking one can simply demand anything only works when employment is high. During a recession, it is either social assistance or one takes the job that is available.

I think it comes from being a software engineer in US the last 10, and especially the last 5 years, is probably the greatest working conditions of any worker ever in human history. There are a large number of people, namely on HN, that have never known anything other than $120K+ compensation, constant stream of offers for changing jobs, all while working from their home and doing about 4 hours of real work a day. I d…

Four hours of knowledge work a day is actually a lot. The average corporate worker probably does far less. Meetings, small talk, answering emails, etc. feel like work, but most of the time it isn’t. Four hours of focused knowledge work can produce exponential more value that four hours of meetings.

The thing is, this has always been the case for the white collar world. Lawyers, executives, etc. The real change is that ICs that aren’t playing politics are able to live that life now. The reversion to the mean isn’t happening until those people stop producing massive economic value.

Personally, I will work in a warehouse before I go back to the office. Do twenty hours a week temp work while I work on setting up a side business. It’s never been easier to start your own business, and we don’t need big companies to make a living anymore. The real reversion to the mean is cutting out the rent-seeking middle men that extract value from our economic output while contributing little themselves.

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#268
post #41
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the timeline. Things are changing very rapidly. Automation seems to be coming at us at an exponential rate. The expectation that it's going to be business as usual is just as short sighted and archaic with regard going into an office as it is with the idea of work in general.

Oh boy, I'm excited for the massive wealth creation of this exponential growth to trickle down to workers.

Certainly not an argument I'm making. But if you're making UBI at bare minimum you won't have to iron your polo shirt and khakis every morning.

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of people on here have not been through a real recession. Not saying that everybody will go back to working in an office, but thinking one can simply demand anything only works when employment is high. During a recession, it is either social assistance or one takes the job that is available.

There is no excess labor left in the system. We just went through a pandemic where, in the US, 2.4 million people just vanished from the labor force. If there is a recession it'll be a fully employed recession where the fed has to keep rates high because workers are fully employed and driving up wages while capital is crying uncle for lost profits and cheap money again.

> in the US, 2.4 million people just vanished from the labor force

Not certain what you mean by vanished and where the 2.4M number came from. CDC says 1,136,473 died in the pandemic [0], although a significant portion were not likely members of the labor force. As it stands the number labor force members caught up to pre-pandemic numbers in August of 2022. [1]

  Feb 2020 164M
  Apr 2020 156M
  Aug 2022 164M
  Jul 2023 167M
0. https://covid.cdc.gov/

1. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CLF16OV

Re: Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office

#270
I mentioned this in another post but here's my take.

Background: I graduated from school in Spring 2020 and started at my first full time software in Aug 2020. I've began going to the office about 4 days a week since Feb 2023. Prior to that, I had only been in an office twice ever (excluding my 2019 internship).

Here's some points that make in office tough for me to enjoy.

* When I'm in office, stuck on a problem and need to just think, what can I do? I can stare at other people. I can hear other conversations, others typing, etc. When I'm at home, I can do basic home chores like fold laundry.

* When I'm in office, my lunch options are more limited. I either need to buy lunch, bring it, or select from what work has catered. Bringing a lunch limits options and takes time at home to prepare. When I'm at home, I can eat whatever, whenever. No pressure to sit with people I with with. No comments about why am I eating what I'm eating.

* I typically feel more isolated in the office than I do at home. In the office, I can see others walking around having conversations. I don't know anyone outside of my direct team. Even then, collaboration is very low. With no meetings, I'll talk for maybe 15-20 minutes in the day. At home, I am alone, but I'm not watching others actively socialize. This is more of a me problem than anything.

There are also things I don't like about being in the office in general. I don't like that others speak in languages I don't understand. The monitors, chairs and lighting are worse than at home. The office is in a not great area, and I walk so it's not a nice commute.

Overall, I've come to really enjoy and be excited for my work from home days.

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