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Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

nytimes.com

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Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#121

Post by DanielBMarkham »

mchristoff wrote: post #93
ars wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're talking like his job was an entitlement. Companies go bust and people lose jobs, it happens a lot. The reason people are talking UAW workers that way, is not because they begrudge the individual worker like your father - they don't. It's because the car companies were not allowed to fire or lay off people as they wished, which gives a very strong impression of entitlement and job guarantees amongst UAW workers…

huh?? in the last 15 years gm has closed dozens of plants. yes, certainly the union fought to get the best deal collectively for their workers, but you have to have rocks in your head if you think people like my father felt entitled. they felt lucky to have a job. as for finding another job... you highlight my point! it's pretty fucking difficult to find another job when after 20 years the only thing you're qualified…

"it's pretty fucking difficult to find another job when after 20 years the only thing you're qualified to do is work in a general motors factory"

I've always had a problem with this argument. If you work 40 hours a week, you've easily got time in 20 years to do anything you'd like to do -- including becoming a brain surgeon.

I'm honestly not trying to be cold about it, but the rest of us live in a world, especially in IT, where you have to keep learning new skills in order to survive. I'm very sad that people thought that GM would last forever and that they could simply get trained in one skill and have it last a lifetime. But those days are over. They've been over for a long, long time.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#122

Post by bpyne »

One detail I don't remember seeing in the Op-Ed piece was health care differences between countries. In the countries our auto companies compete against, I believe all of them have health care at the national level. Right there, you have a major cost businesses in the US are absorbing.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#123

Post by Retric »

mchristoff wrote: post #98
fallentimes wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, it is difficult. But where your Dad is at (the same place my Dad was at) is nothing more than the product of their own decisions. Is it anyone's fault but your Dad's that he's only qualified to work in a factory? Is it anyone's fault but my Dad's that he didn't learn about computers even though he saw them appearing everywhere? My Dad was able to learn some new skills and eventually land on his feet aft…

sure, no one is entitled to a job. that's not my point at all. things change and jobs change. what I was trying to explain is why my dad would travel 100mi to get to work. yeah sure, he could have went to med school or something, but he had a family to support and nearing retirement that was his best option. i feel it's pretty arrogant to even make a statement, "why did he just find another job". sure he could have,…

Look, 25$/hour + Free heath care + Vacation + Retirement is way better than most Americans get today. I knew someone supporting a wife and 2 kids making 7.25$/hour + a lot of overtime working as a cook at Denny's and going to collage at the same time. That's America, sure he worked all the time and had no life but now he has a good job and if he was in a dieing industry he would do it again.

Unions have done great things to bring heath care and a living wage to most americans but they kept pushing and over time they have distroyed many companies. Management was doing the same thing and they shorted the pension program etc but these companies are dieing and assuming they are going to keep just as many people employed long term is stupid. Capitalism creates efficiency by destroying jobs, when one welder can do the work of 4 you lay off the redundant people and move on.

PS: Saying they pay 2k per car in pension benefits is silly, if they made twice as many cars their pension benefits don't go up. Yes, they have huge unfunded liabilities but if they made coffee they would still have that same costs. Fixing pension cost's is all about growth not cutting benefits.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#124

Post by Retric »

Xichekolas wrote: post #92
ars wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're talking like his job was an entitlement. Companies go bust and people lose jobs, it happens a lot. The reason people are talking UAW workers that way, is not because they begrudge the individual worker like your father - they don't. It's because the car companies were not allowed to fire or lay off people as they wished, which gives a very strong impression of entitlement and job guarantees amongst UAW workers…

"entitlement and job guarantees amongst UAW workers that no one else in america has" Well about 10% of Americans work for the government in some respect. How often do they get fired, in spite of doing nothing? (Disclaimer: I once worked for State Government. I'm not sure how much work UAW members did, but I can't see how anyone can get less done than Government Employees did. For every one that worked really hard, th…

I don't think 3/4 of teachers, police, and the military simply show up and are waiting for retirement. They might not put in 110% as it where but they still get a lot of stuff done. I think it's the Government office workers that don't really do much but most private sector office workers don't seem to get much done so I wonder how much less effective they really are. (Cue XKCD comic "it's time for science" or some such.)

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#125

Post by jdminhbg »

bpyne wrote: post #122

One detail I don't remember seeing in the Op-Ed piece was health care differences between countries. In the countries our auto companies compete against, I believe all of them have health care at the national level. Right there, you have a major cost businesses in the US are absorbing.

In both Japan and Germany, health care is mandated by the government but paid for by the employer. See e.g. http://www.nchc.org/facts/Japan.pdf

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#126

Post by bpyne »

jdminhbg wrote: post #125
bpyne wrote: post #122

One detail I don't remember seeing in the Op-Ed piece was health care differences between countries. In the countries our auto companies compete against, I believe all of them have health care at the national level. Right there, you have a major cost businesses in the US are absorbing.

In both Japan and Germany, health care is mandated by the government but paid for by the employer. See e.g. http://www.nchc.org/facts/Japan.pdf

Thanks for the link. I read the one on Germany as well.

It seems more like a combination of employer and employee payment with the governments being involved as a single payer system - in the case of Germany.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#127

Post by astine »

mchristoff wrote: post #93
ars wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're talking like his job was an entitlement. Companies go bust and people lose jobs, it happens a lot. The reason people are talking UAW workers that way, is not because they begrudge the individual worker like your father - they don't. It's because the car companies were not allowed to fire or lay off people as they wished, which gives a very strong impression of entitlement and job guarantees amongst UAW workers…

huh?? in the last 15 years gm has closed dozens of plants. yes, certainly the union fought to get the best deal collectively for their workers, but you have to have rocks in your head if you think people like my father felt entitled. they felt lucky to have a job. as for finding another job... you highlight my point! it's pretty fucking difficult to find another job when after 20 years the only thing you're qualified…

Part of the problem is, that the higher you force the wage, the fewer employees a company can employ. So, when unions push wages (and pensions) too high, it prevents the companies from hiring as many employees. In the case of UAW and GM, it went so far that GM was forced to close down factories and many UAW workers lost their jobs as a result.

A better way to improve wages and income for workers is to improve their productivity, that is, their subjective worth in relation to the employer, as wages tend to naturally approach this value. Tis is best done by increasing the quantity and quality available to the workers. Effectively this means increasing innovation, which GM and Ford have not been able to provide for years. UAW is part of the problem here as well.

Not that unions are all bad, workers should have a negotiating body in order to prevent abuse by employers, but I think that in this case they are part of the problem.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#128

Post by astine »

mchristoff wrote: post #81
crabapple wrote: post #11

one must ask why a waitress at denny's who makes minimum wage and has no healthcare must bail out union workers at gm who make 8x the wages, do less work, have ZERO DEDUCTABLE healthcare (do you? i doubt it), and full pensions. or why should a succesful worker at honda in ohio subsidize not only a failed competitor, but in essence have his own taxation used to undermine his own hard work? as for saving jobs and inves…

it really disgusts me that this comment has been upmodded so much. it reeks of overgeneralization, ignorance, and hyperbole. it's very easy to sit on your high horse and talk about hypothetical denny's waitresses, but a little harder when this actually effects you and your loved ones. my father worked his ass off for GM for more than 25 years, not to mention driving 100 miles each way for the last 10 so his family di…

It really disgusts me that this comment has been upmodded so much. it reeks of overgeneralization, ignorance, and hyperbole. it's very easy to sit on your high horse and talk about hypothetical denny's waitresses, but a little harder when this actually effects you and your loved ones.

Very true. The dangers many Americans face as a result of all this are real, as are the hardships that prompted folks to adopt these broken systems in the first place. However, that doesn't change the fact that there are very serious problems with the system and that the hardships could be made much worse if they are not addressed.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#130

Post by Retric »

adamc wrote: post #104
ewanmcteagle wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$8/hour = $16k per year (roughly). Since this is greater than the standard deduction you will not be avoiding federal income tax at this level.

The tax on $16k per year is miniscule, if any.

SS works out to ~15.3% add Medicare etc, and they are at ~20% the absolute top tax rate is 35% assuming zero deductions but capital gains is only 15%. With 16k * .2 we get 3,200$ in tax.

Earned income tax credit = $428 with no qualifying children wow that helps.

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