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China's Zombie Economy

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151–156 of 156 posts

Re: China's Zombie Economy

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean generally. This is a pervasively common myth (the Talk section of the wiki article alludes to this). Read about the money multiplier myth, or, a direct source from a central bank about how loans are created by creating new deposits at the point of loan creation: https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/explainers/how-is-money-crea... There is a concept of reserve in the system. That is: banks must keep a reserve with t…

I guess I still don’t understand your original point in the context of your reply. Say the banks are creating new money through these loans. And then enough of the original depositors plus some of the people that have been lent money want their money out that the bank can’t give it to all of them. From a layperson’s perspective (like mine) this seems like the bank has loaned out their deposits — it seems like a disti…

There's a lot to unpick, and it's a massively confusing system that I'm still trying to understand myself, but I'll do my best.

When you deposit money into a bank a few things happen:

- The money is no longer yours, it's the banks, you have no ownership of it anymore

- The bank creates an IOU (a deposit) in your account to say that you may request money equalling this value at any time. You can spend this IOU in various places, it is widely accepted as money. This "bank money" is confusingly referred to as dollars (or whatever your currency is), just like actual cash is.

- Completely separated from handling deposits, another arm of the bank creates loans, which also creates IOU's (deposits) in their respective account.

- Someone given a loan may request to withdraw cash (or a transfer), which may force the bank to reach into it's reserves, which is partly made up of customer cash deposits. These reserves are owned by the bank, not depositors. Banks are not holding onto depositors money in a strict sense, it's the banks money until an IOU is called in.

I think the last bit might be where the question about the "distinction without a difference" might be coming from? when the borrower requests cash, they are not "withdrawing" their loan, they are cashing in their deposit of "bank money". Because the percentage of reserves is always vastly smaller than all deposits they hold, bank runs are always destructive on the system. The whole system is a massive plate spinning act that works fine if the plates keep spinning.

Re: China's Zombie Economy

#152
I would encourage commenters here to pay a visit to China to see what's happening there with their own eyes. Most commenters never visit China and make some bold comments based on distorted information from MSM. A couple of months ago, I visited my hometown in China, located in one of the poorest regions of the country, and I witnessed how vibrant the local economy is. I attended a Big Data Expo held there, and I was shocked by how deep Big Data and AI are integrated in everyday life and industry over there. I think it's beneficial to know the facts in seeking truth.

Re: China's Zombie Economy

#153
post #100

Anyone who took a high-speed train from Beijing to Shanghai over the past decade might have caught on to this phenomenon. The number of cities built in the middle of nowhere, with concrete skyscrapers standing empty, is stark and staggering. Seeing them is not only surreal, but gives one the sense of seeing something they ought not to, despite it being right outside the window. The only rationalization that withstand…

China has only 10% of the world's arable land yet produces a quarter of the global grain output and leads the planet in the production of cereals, cotton, fruit, vegetables, meat, poultry, eggs, and fishery products, according to FAO. [0]

China is more than 100% self sufficient on essential food (rice and other grains). China does import a large amount of soybean for fodder. If anything, I think Chinese eat too much nowadys and become as wasteful in food as Americans. When I visit China, I don't like the fact that many families have pets (dog, cat, and etc) just like here in US.

[0]https://www.fao.org/china/fao-in-china/china-at-a-glance/en

Re: China's Zombie Economy

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you use PPP that would make India the 3rd largest economy and they have a ways to go before they can be considered developed.

Yet it is 3rd largest indeed, if you want to compare per capita levels just divide by population but then completely unexpected countries (as well as a few expected like Switzerland), come out on top.

It’s not really unexpected. It’s mostly the oil rich middle eastern countries and a few of the tiny European ones like Luxembourg and Switzerland.

That has nothing to do with PPP thought which is a measure of how inexpensive things are in a country relative to one another.

Re: China's Zombie Economy

#155
post #152

I would encourage commenters here to pay a visit to China to see what's happening there with their own eyes. Most commenters never visit China and make some bold comments based on distorted information from MSM. A couple of months ago, I visited my hometown in China, located in one of the poorest regions of the country, and I witnessed how vibrant the local economy is. I attended a Big Data Expo held there, and I was…

I agree and I'm not sure the economic arguments along the lines of "overaccumulation crisis" have much predictive value, similar to much economic theory.

I also visited China fairly recently, China in 1983 and other culturally Chinese places like HK, Singapore, Taiwan and western areas. My take is the Chinese are a generally a hard working educated people who will do well given the chance. In 1983 the place was reduced to 1$ a day type poverty by Mao style communism. When Deng Xiaoping dropped that and allowed normally capitalism and trade the place boomed as the population started catching up with their cousins abroad.

Now Xi who is a Mao fan is rolling back some of the economic freedom such as arresting the AliBaba guy, and threatening the neighbours militarily which is causing the rest of the world to cut back on trade such as the US moving chip production away. I hope Xi doesn't go too nuts politically and start WW3 or something but otherwise I think China will do ok but not boom quite like the pre Xi period.

Re: China's Zombie Economy

#156
post #152

I would encourage commenters here to pay a visit to China to see what's happening there with their own eyes. Most commenters never visit China and make some bold comments based on distorted information from MSM. A couple of months ago, I visited my hometown in China, located in one of the poorest regions of the country, and I witnessed how vibrant the local economy is. I attended a Big Data Expo held there, and I was…

Remember that "zombie economy", the bubble before the storm, doesn't mean dead local bazaars.

"Big data and AI are integrated in everyday life" should make it clear that author is either naive or shilling. Of course there's big data, with social karma and total surveillance you just must, but if you mean something people actually interact with daily... saw enough sham around it in China that without evidence I will just laugh at this. As soon as tech sector caught on that party wants AI everything instantly is labeled "AI".

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